Can I Find a Fold Here?

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ergingo

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Hi all :)

These days i'm playing NL4 6 Max at Merge. I've been doing good in about 4K hands but on a downswing in the last couple of sessions.

MP is 19/15, 3 bet 8 / fv3bet 89 / Steal 29 / AF 3 in 643 hands.

CO is 17/15, 3bet 5 / fv3bet 67 / Steal 32 / FvSteal 94 / cbet 57 / AF 3 in 358 hands.

Hero is 17/13, 3bet 3 / fv3bet 100 / fvSteal 80 / AF 2 in 88 hands at the time of hand.

What is the standart play against a taggy/nitty player in this spot, call or fold?

I don't know why it says party poker but here is the hand:

Party Poker - $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Holdem (6 players)
Party Poker Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB Hero: $4
BB: $1.12
UTG: $4.94
MP: $5.81
CO: $4.84
BTN: $8.38

Pre-flop: ($0.06) Hero is SB and dealt :qd4: :qc4:
UTG folds, MP raises to $0.12, CO raises to $0.42, BTN folds, Hero raises to $1.08, 2 folds, CO raises to $4.84 (All-in), Hero ??
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Wow - that is tougher than it looks. For myself it might come down to instinct.

Escalating to shove just seems a bit excessive for AA or KK - but he has such a tiny AF it is also out of character for him.

Is there any reason he might think you would come along on his shove or does he just want you to go away?

You've played it right on up to this point - if it matters.

I think I have to call in 6max - FR would not be as likely.
 
E

ergingo

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Wow - that is tougher than it looks. For myself it might come down to instinct.

Escalating to shove just seems a bit excessive for AA or KK - but he has such a tiny AF it is also out of character for him.

Is there any reason he might think you would come along on his shove or does he just want you to go away?

You've played it right on up to this point - if it matters.

I think I have to call in 6max - FR would not be as likely.

Thanks for the reply MediaBLITZ

I just checked his played hands on Poker Tracker and he seems to be playing pretty straightforward. I was playing very tight so i

don't think he sees me as a spewy player who would call his PF shove with middle pairs or AQ type of hands. I don't

know if he's a type of player to 5bet allin with non-premium hands just because i was playing weak-tight and giving up on pots

pretty easily. Also he was a little bit too quick to press the allin button which made me think he had something big :)
 
Ducky7

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I think once you have 4bet you have to call, although its not the easiest/happiest call you will ever make. (If he doesnt do this ever with AK then its a much tougher decision) but if you think he does this with AK then its a call, he may also do this with Jacks 6 handed. But dont quote me on that
 
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ergingo

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I think once you have 4bet you have to call, although its not the easiest/happiest call you will ever make. (If he doesnt do this ever with AK then its a much tougher decision) but if you think he does this with AK then its a call, he may also do this with Jacks 6 handed. But dont quote me on that

Thank you Ducky

I don't know if he would do this with Jacks but i remember doing this with 99 and losing to KK. I was playing tight but was also

very inexperienced. :eek:
 
jaxpaboo

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I would of flatted against nitty to set mine. I fold after this action... don't want to be flipping against AK or dominated by AA KK.
 
The Messiah

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You cant 4bet/fold.
The only time you 4bet fold is when its part of your bluffing range.

You know your villain is tight so 4 betting his range pre is a breakeven/losing play in the longrun, and even more so when you fold the times you do 4 bet his range with premiums and he ends up shipping AK and you end up folding.

So with a villain like this, just flat pre and play the hand accordingly.
 
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ergingo

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Thanks for the replies jaxpaboo and The Messiah.

Playing Queens solely for setmining is pretty weak IMO as it has a lot of showdown value even unimproved. I think 4bet/folding has some merit especially against these tight players. If they 5 bet shove i'll know i'm not in good shape and even if they flat my 4bet i will be able to play the rest of the hand more cautiously. If i flat and he has KK+ it would be impossible to get away from the hand as the flop will contain smaller cards 70% of the time. By 4 bet/folding i'm giving myself a chance to save 75% of my stack if he has an overpair.

But in this case i couldn't save 75% of my stack cause i called and he showed aces. :p

What makes this hand more interesting is that after the hand the MP said in the chatbox he had folded Kings. Not a large sample size
but according to PTR he is a winning player. This made me think like if he could find a fold with KK, maybe i should have too with Queens.

But probably i would never ever fold Kings to a 4bet PF in the micros. :)
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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You cant 4bet/fold.
The only time you 4bet fold is when its part of your bluffing range.

You know your villain is tight so 4 betting his range pre is a breakeven/losing play in the longrun, and even more so when you fold the times you do 4 bet his range with premiums and he ends up shipping AK and you end up folding.

So with a villain like this, just flat pre and play the hand accordingly.

You want to flat oop with the original raiser still to act??

4 bet and then get it in. Just a cooler.
 
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Kaymoar

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all about feel. ive laid down kings preflop ONCE... and it was the correct decision.. dude had aces.
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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You CAN 4bet and fold.. But shipppp ittttt here

Some people stack off way lighter in 6 max
 
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swingro

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Easy fold. He has aces most of the times, KK sometimes. I've been myself in houndreds of situations like this with queens untill i've learned my lesson.
 
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baudib1

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It's a fold if he only does this with KK+, which he might. But I'm not folding QQ after 4-betting, getting 2-1 on a call.
 
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swingro

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I think once you have 4bet you have to call, although its not the easiest/happiest call you will ever make. (If he doesnt do this ever with AK then its a much tougher decision) but if you think he does this with AK then its a call, he may also do this with Jacks 6 handed. But dont quote me on that
I do not agree. You can 4-bet light to give yourself a chance to get out of there. Queens are good to 4-bet but are weak against a 5-bet at this lvls. Players at these lvls are not fancy. If a nity guy 5-bets/shove than he has KK or AA. With AK, QQ or JJ he will call or even fold. TAG guys simply do this at these lvls.
 
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Emoney07

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you can always find a fold. ive folded Kings preflop.. i knew the dude had aces.. and i was right
 
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Navonod

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You just have to ask if villain EVER has JJ/AKo in this spot.. 6 max, micro, has to be a yes..then also ask if villain sometimes slows down to trap at some point with AA, prolly also a yes, and does villain EVER have a bluff here or even a hand he once thought was good that he is turning into a bluff? (Pretty big shove, no? not what I would do with AA) Then factor in two more crucial facts 1) if villain ALWAYS only has AK or AA/KK it is still more likely he has AK than AA and KK combined. 2) 2 to 1 odds on the call (you can be lose 66% of the time and break even) I'm NEVER folding here at 6 max. Most 6 max players (even on the tight end) will happilly shove AKo,AKs,JJ+(maybe TT+, maybe the occassional bluff with blocker like A2s) I'm not saying this is a "Call and high five the monitor" but its a call. IMHO
At FR, against certain opponents you can certainly fold this (less in todays meta game than years ago but even in the super laggy days of light 3/4/5 betting I think i can still find fold bttn in this spot FR..maybe) but in TODAYS META, GETTING 2 to 1, AT 6 MAX.... its just a cooler plain and simple.
 
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GWU73

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Definite fold as played. Villain is almost always going to be shoving AA and occasionally KK here. A looser, more aggressive player might shove AK or JJ, but probably not this guy. Honestly, I have folded KK in these spots and been shown the AA.
 
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InfamousAmos

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4 bets I say you have to call, he is probably shoving a higher pocket pair but hope hes holding some AK AJ KQ etc..
 
4thandinches

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Fold. He already re-raised the initial raiser, and since he was tight, he had JJ at the worst. But most likely you were dominated by AA or KK. And you would have been fortunate if you were in a race vs AK or basically a wash vs another QQ. However, if I had KK there, I would not have been proud, but would have definitely gone all-in.
 
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