Hyper Aggression at Zoom

CRStals

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I made a comment about this on Ryan's Cash Game thread recently, and wanted to expand on this.

I've noticed at micro stakes lately the influx of players that are donking pot or more, or shoving in and way overbetting the pot. I'm struggling with how to play against these players at times and why all of a sudden it seems this happens much more frequently.


Playing 2NL - and someone will plow in UTG+1 for 100BB - they really want to win the 3 cents in the middle.


Or


I'll raise pre flop with AKo, get called by the BB, and on a K72 rainbow they've donk bet pot - or sometime plow all in.


Can someone explain the rationale of donking that much in those spots, or shoving in pre flop?
 
Bozovicdj

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When zoom first started, I thought it is a super easy way to win money. I'd just fold until I get a monster hand which should happen every 5 mins or so, considering the pace of the game. But once I started playing, I was actually losing a lot to blinds, that I would fold to any bet, and then not really win that much once I do get a monster.
So my belief is that people are either waiting for monsters too much or playing aggressive beyond reason to collect on the first type. I guess, if you are able to balance out between those two, you should be profitable at zoom tables. I, myself couldn't do that so just stayed at regular 9handed cash game tables.
 
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Your thought process appears to be flawed when you incorporate rationale or reasoning into your equation of understanding the preflop all-in players.

You really need to understand that the vast majority of preflop online players haven’t the slightest comprehension on the actual math involved in shoving preflop all-in with the cards that they hold.

This explanation may be overly simplified, but I think you will get the drift

The rational of donking is simple……….. You are playing against idiots, … lower intellect individuals.
 
CRStals

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When zoom first started, I thought it is a super easy way to win money. I'd just fold until I get a monster hand which should happen every 5 mins or so, considering the pace of the game. But once I started playing, I was actually losing a lot to blinds, that I would fold to any bet, and then not really win that much once I do get a monster.
So my belief is that people are either waiting for monsters too much or playing aggressive beyond reason to collect on the first type. I guess, if you are able to balance out between those two, you should be profitable at zoom tables. I, myself couldn't do that so just stayed at regular 9handed cash game tables.

I really don't know if this is true, and it doesn't explain the donking part. I can't imagine even the least informed players are simply shoving AA all in pre flop.


The over aggressive nature I totally agree is there - but the question is why. And the donking...is this range advantage, or hoping to push off a big hand on a luke warm flop?
 
CRStals

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You're implying that I'm overanalyzing this? I don't follow.


I don't buy that the majority of players don't have a clue on the math for shoving all in preflop. I think some don't, but I think some do. If this is a play to shove with high pairs and hope to get called I think it works sometimes but not often.


I think a lot of players are hyper aggressive at 2NL and don't care about the money more than their lack of intellect.


Your explanation is very simplified...not saying you're wrong but I have a hard time wrapping my head around players simply wanting to hit bet, bet, bet, bet.


If that's hit so be it, but I'm curious what others think.


Your thought process appears to be flawed when you incorporate rationale or reasoning into your equation of understanding the preflop all-in players.

You really need to understand that the vast majority of preflop online players haven’t the slightest comprehension on the actual math involved in shoving preflop all-in with the cards that they hold.

This explanation may be overly simplified, but I think you will get the drift

The rational of donking is simple……….. You are playing against idiots, … lower intellect individuals.
 
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For me it seems that shove ranges are mostly (22+ only few), Axs, A9o+, QQ+ so relatively tight.

Some tourney players shove every pair, because they just remember that their heroes did that on final table.

At the moment, because I don’t know what else to do, I’m looking hand count. If I have just few hands, suggesting player is new, I’m assigning him the whole range, except if its squeeze shove then I give him as wide range than I dear. The logic being that person who shoves badly probably only lives around 10 minutes on average on zoom pool.

However person with somewhat normal stats, I just give him tight range, and assume he just lost badly his last pocket pair and wants to make sure that won’t happen this time.

I don’t sweat it too much though, without notes, against at whole somewhat balanced range calling or folding with most hands is just breakeven both ways.
 
8bod8

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In zoom micro/freerolls MTT too many either limp, or bet overly agressive. The latter, as I see it, is to prevent 4 way pots when you're holding excellent cards, as it is not just the player UTG, but at least 50% of the others that will call anything.
Only after a player realises that when going all-in with 100BB to either earn 3cents, or to loose the entire stack, is not smart statistically Things will improve, as they become more experienced players. In the worst case, they don't learn and keep doing the same, like donkeys.
 
Alucard

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I'd say that there is no point in playing 2NL zoom cause there are over 1000 players at anytime so it's very rare that you'd build up decent history or stats with them.So at these kind of spots you'd mostly be guessing.
Of course you know this.


And I've seen the similar donking at times but if you have some history you can outplay them easily.
 
Bozovicdj

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The over aggressive nature I totally agree is there - but the question is why. And the donking...is this range advantage, or hoping to push off a big hand on a luke warm flop?

I don't think there is that much thinking behind shoves in a 2NL zoom game (regarding ranges). And it is not that people don't have a clue about the game or the math behind it, it is just the lack of care when playing such micro stakes. If you were to play 10NL zoom, you would really feel the difference. Let alone some even higher stakes.
At the end of the day, regardless of the stakes, there will always be gamblers and bad players. Thing is, you will encounter them more often in lowest stakes, especially in zoom games.


Would also add, that I agree with alucard, huge pool of players to gather info on, in most of zoom cash games, not only 2NL. Therefore it is a guessing game whether they got it or not when they shove so aggressively.
 
puzzlefish

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CRStals, I have a different theory as to why they are doing this. Actually a few theories.

1. Collusion, but not sure to what extent. I know Zoom seems random but I have seen the same players show up at the same table several times and have it coincide with hyperagressive raises.

2. It is a profitable strategy that works more often than it doesn't. They don't get called and steal the pot. Repeat this 10 times with the blinds alone and that's 30 cents. Multiply by several tables for a grinder. Multiply further for hands that see a flop and fold (if the grinder does a 4bet and then shoves for a fold).

3. Fraud. There is something about the RNG that is predictable on Zoom games and these players are exploiting it. I have some evidence of this but not enough to say conclusively at this time.
 
Bozovicdj

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CRStals, I have a different theory as to why they are doing this. Actually a few theories.

1. Collusion, but not sure to what extent. I know Zoom seems random but I have seen the same players show up at the same table several times and have it coincide with hyperagressive raises.

2. It is a profitable strategy that works more often than it doesn't. They don't get called and steal the pot. Repeat this 10 times with the blinds alone and that's 30 cents. Multiply by several tables for a grinder. Multiply further for hands that see a flop and fold (if the grinder does a 4bet and then shoves for a fold).

3. Fraud. There is something about the RNG that is predictable on Zoom games and these players are exploiting it. I have some evidence of this but not enough to say conclusively at this time.

I honestly don't think it goes that far as fraud and collusion. I mean, when you play zoom tables, the new table is created by randomly selecting players from a pool of those who folded and are not in hand at the moment. Random means it is possible to even pick 3 or 4 people from the table you just folded from, creating almost the same table twice in a row. Also, I don't think that this is a profitable strategy either. you are saying that 10 shoves can make you 15BB (thats 30c in 0.01/0.02 or 2NL games), but then just one call from an opponent that holds a better hand or gets lucky with the board, can make you lose 100BB (approximate stack size).
 
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braveslice

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Funny thing, I have been wondering if shoving is actually a valid strategy on zoom, tight players call something like {AKs, QQ+} wide players top 20%

If we assume 3% player pool is wide, 97% is tight, we get:
Our shove range: 77+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+ : 8.75%
Wide call range: {44+, A7s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo} EQ vs: 60%, 282/1326 hands
Tight vs EQ 30% 22/1326 hands

We shove UTG, probability we get a call (approximation only, not going to learn how to exclude ranges or players) on average there is 0.03*5 = 0.15 wide, and 0.97*5 = 4.85 tight players.

Probability we get a call from wide player : 282/1326*0.15 = 0.0319%, probability we get a call from tight 4.85*22/1326 = 0.0805

We get folds 1-0.0319-0.0805= 0.8876

EV shoving UTG >
EVfolds: 3bb, EVwidecalls: 20bb, EVtight: -30bb

TotalEV: 0.8876*3+0.0319*20+0.0805*-30 ~= +1bb =)
 
puzzlefish

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braveslice is that just for shoving UTG? I notice that shoves (or very aggressive over bets) on Zoom are often from the button or small blind.

Bozovicdj: yes, they can sometimes get busted. But keep in mind that they are not just always shoving anything and everything that they get. They do have a range, but just not quite what you would expect. Hence why I wonder if there is some kind of collusion/fraud going on.
 
molodoi3000

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I think it is only necessary to play zoom elite or near elite hands. And differently for what to you to change tables so quickly? I have waited a hand of the monster, 3-bet and you take away a jackpot
 
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braveslice is that just for shoving UTG? I notice that shoves (or very aggressive over bets) on Zoom are often from the button or small blind.

Yes only UTG, but that is the hardest place to do it. However, the actual math is garbage there because ranges and frequencies are too unpredictable. What is says though that shoving is not that negative ev than one would first assume.
 
puzzlefish

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Yeah that is what I thought based on intuition. Nice to see that math does seem to support it, even if ranges may be all over the place.
 
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braveslice

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Dangit, EVfolds is 3bb, should be 1.5bb
EV shoving UTG >
EVfolds: 3bb, EVwidecalls: 20bb, EVtight: -30bb

TotalEV: 0.8876*3+0.0319*20+0.0805*-30 ~= +1bb =)

TotalEV: 0.8876*1.5 +0.0319*20+0.0805*-30 ~= -0.5bb :(
 
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