How would you have played this?

Hi, I'm a new member, but have enjoyed reading the posts here for some time.

I lost a big hand last night, and was wondering how others would have played it.

18-person SNG on Full Tilt. I'm in 5th place of 5, right on the bubble, with about 9M. I'm in the BB with Jack-Queen of spades, and the SB min raises.

I call, and the flop comes 10 of spades, king of spades, 3 of clubs. I raise about 1/3 of my stack, the SB re-raises me all in, and I call with 17 outs and royal flush draw. I didn't hit any of my outs, and was eliminated on the bubble. Was this decent call, or should I have folded and waited for another opportunity?

Thanks,
Dan

Speaking strictly as a tight intermediate player who is still learning proper strategy, I'll say that betting big or calling raises with JQs is off my range unless *maybe* I'm on the button. But on the bubble I'd probably fold that to a raise no matter what the position. I certainly wouldn't bet big to chase the draw while on the bubble.

If you asked me awhile ago, I would have probably said I might loosen up a bit and play it if I were deep-stacked, but I just got chastised in another topic for calling a 3xBB PFR holding KJo, which I only did because I was deep-stacked (compared to the pot size). I got extremely lucky and hit quad K's on the flop and the villain bet me out big holding a full house, but nevertheless it was pointed out (rightly so) that I should not let my stack size allow me to make such a poor call. It's a habit I'm trying to unlearn.

Yeah, I'm also usually pretty hesitant to call PF with Jack Queen, but this player had been raising my blinds consistently with a pretty wide range, so I felt okay about calling a min-raise from the blind. And, after the flop, with so many outs, I figured it was a great chance to double up. Had I won the hand, I'd have moved up to 2nd. This is the dilemma I (and I'm sure others) continually face - whether to take a reasonable risk to have a better shot at winning, or be conservative in order to cash.

If he's been stealing your BB a lot reraise preflop. You'll pick up his chips most of the time without seeing a flop and perhaps slow him down the next time he thinks about stealing. After that flop I stack every time.

It was a hard hand to get away from, but all-in on a chase is not usually a good idea. What you need to remember is that your hand is a drawing hand and that is all. The intial problem was initiating the action. I would have checked to see how my opponent would bet. It gives you a better opportunity to put him on a range of hands. If he bets you can tell the strength of his hand and decide whether to risk it or not. If he checks you get a free card. No sense in giving your chips and a chance to cash away.

bluesboy47 said:

It was a hard hand to get away from, but all-in on a chase is not usually a good idea. What you need to remember is that your hand is a drawing hand and that is all. The intial problem was initiating the action. I would have checked to see how my opponent would bet. It gives you a better opportunity to put him on a range of hands. If he bets you can tell the strength of his hand and decide whether to risk it or not. If he checks you get a free card. No sense in giving your chips and a chance to cash away.

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We're not chasing, we are likely ahead. OP doesn't say what the villain had here but even if we give him AK for TPTK, we're a favorite to win the hand (~52%). If he only has a A10 we are better than 67% to win. You need to stack this flop every time.

Yes, sorry, I forgot to mention the opponent's hand. A-K offsuit. I knew from his re-raise (and previous play) that he must have had a hand, but felt the flop was too favorable to let it go.

there's chasing and then there are huge draws. You're the one in fifth anyway. I might want to be the one raising all in to give sb chance to fold, but you have to call his allin with chips in pot and so many outs.

danvanan said:

Hi, I'm a new member, but have enjoyed reading the posts here for some time.

I lost a big hand last night, and was wondering how others would have played it.

18-person SNG on Full Tilt. I'm in 5th place of 5, right on the bubble, with about 9M. I'm in the BB with Jack-Queen of spades, and the SB min raises.

I call, and the flop comes 10 of spades, king of spades, 3 of clubs. I raise about 1/3 of my stack, the SB re-raises me all in, and I call with 17 outs and royal flush draw. I didn't hit any of my outs, and was eliminated on the bubble. Was this decent call, or should I have folded and waited for another opportunity?

Thanks,
Dan

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You dont say if the flop was checked to you
if it was why didnt you take the free card
With betting 30% of your stack here you are pretty much pot committed maybe a smaller bet from you woulda given you the same information and you coulda got away from it
if the SB bet i think you gotta push here
It is one of those "what if" hands that most people see from a different angle and i dont really think there is a right way or wrong way to play it
You were just unlucky

well he says raise/reraise so i assume it was bet. obv Ak isn't folding to an all in but if he has AQ/JJ you give him option of letting you take it uncontested and if he calls you have good odds on the rest. When someone consistently raising your blinds minraises oop have to think he wants action. Be suspicious not comfortable with minraise here.

I'm in the camp that says this draw is huge and you need to play it fast to get some fold equity from it. If you wait until the turn, and don't hit one of your outs, your hand drops in value dramatically.

I agree with playing this huge draw fast and hard (no sexual reference).
Some people on the bubble will play much more aggressively trying to gather chips rather then survive, and sure u were a small dog but with a huge draw you have to push. Not to mention it puts u in an amazing position to win the tourney; so Id push with that every time.

Thanks for all the opinions. It's good to know that other players might have done the same thing. I know I always feel like I've made a bad move when I'm eliminated, although it's easy to second guess yourself, and you can't win em all.

Good thread this.

To those who said they would have called. If it was only an open ended straight or flush draw and not both how would that effect your decision?

Would it come purely down to the odds your getting?

scouseandy said:

To those who said they would have called. If it was only an open ended straight or flush draw and not both how would that effect your decision?

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Open-ender? No. Flush draw? Probably only if it was the nut draw and no pairs on the board.

With an open-ended SF draw, no guts, no glory. Gotta go with it.
:dito:

U just didn't hit.stiil U had nothing after flop only draws.

That was a good call, in your position, the longer you wait the less your chips will be worth when you finally make an aggressive move and win. Here you were last, had a decent hand, and doubleing up in your position may have been helpful. I say good play.

The 1/3 of your stack bet was basically a bluff to push him off the pot, the reraise all in should have told you he had a made hand and that at that point although fav to win the hand, you were behind at that point and had to catch to take it down. You decided to gamble and it didn't pay off, what you have to ask yourself, in hindsight would folding have crippled you to a point that a comeback was unlikely? That's something you have to decide for yourself. Double paint can be "get you in trouble" cards, let's assume the flop had been 10 J Q rainbow, bet you would have pushed all in? He insta calls with top str8 and you have 4 outs, bad position to be in.

you needed security looking for a tell i'd have checked
while saying you better have a K bud but online sucks

get yourself in control or the adversary out the pot flop either killed you or made you always play strong once committed if he/she doesn't have a K you win right now so pounce

thats the difference between clowns.......................and jokers
cya at a table

You should post more information on stack sizes and describe the player a little bit. If he's been stealing a lot you perhaps should have pushed it in there. If he's been really snug then it's an insta-fold. Still, on he flop you couldn't have played it any different - the money had to get in there.

WVHillbilly said:

We're not chasing, we are likely ahead. OP doesn't say what the villain had here but even if we give him AK for TPTK, we're a favorite to win the hand (~52%). If he only has a A10 we are better than 67% to win. You need to stack this flop every time.

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^This

Also, re raise or fold it pre flop, with an m of 9, calling a raise seems to be quite a big portion of your stack (dependant on ante sizes) So i'd prefer to see a raise or fold preflop

As played, stack flop every time

I agree with your push, regardless of the out come, ur push was still the right move, had the same thing happen awhile back on omaha hi, it cost me my entire roll, about 600 at the time, but I still did it, If I recall correctly I had close to half the deck as outs, yet went blank blank, anywho, don't sweat it

I see some peeps just don't know when to fold, gimme a made hand against a draw every time.