How is "seeing many flops" / smallball consistent with VPIP close to PFR?

As topic says, some prefer seeing many flops and outplaying opponents postflop with speculative hands which when they hit can win a big pot.

I just cannot understand how that approach, which I tend to employ sometimes if the table is really tight for instance, is consistent with stats where VPIP & PFR are close together. I want to play this type of "trappy" poker, but all strategy I read says I should always be the raiser.

I do understand how having initiative has its benefits, but if using this approach, for instance raising BTN with 67s or QTs hoping to flop strong draws or 2-pair, but if we miss our hand is dead vs caller's range and hard to play even IP. If a cbet of 3/4 pot doesn't take it down then we lost the initial 3-bet as well as a decent cbet. We give up and lose 20bb.

I am inclined to believe that a better approach is to call on the BTN with 67s and QTs trying to trap, risking only ~3bb and going for value if we hit a monster, semibluffing on a strong draw or floating the flop to take it down on turn. Basically using position and the fact that 1/3 flops miss.

So... please leave some general comments on this. How can I get VPIP/PFR close together? And what is a good strategy if I want to play these types of speculative hands?

I think it depend on the level you play.

If you are playing vs people who don't give a crap about who raised preflop but are only interested in their own cards (chronic donkers who don't fold to raises), then the famous VPIP/PFR gap is of questionable significance, although if it is too big then maybe you are losing too much by playing too many hands.

Ratio between VPIP and PFR is probably more important than the actual gap.

LD1977 said:

I think it depend on the level you play.

If you are playing vs people who don't give a crap about who raised preflop but are only interested in their own cards (chronic donkers who don't fold to raises), then the famous VPIP/PFR gap is of questionable significance, although if it is too big then maybe you are losing too much by playing too many hands.

Ratio between VPIP and PFR is probably more important than the actual gap.

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Yes it is the ratio I am talking about. And I would love to hear more comments on this, regardless of level. I highly doubt that someone playing a fair amount of speculative hands is the PF raiser every single time.

I suppose one reason I like this style (calling rather than raising with speculative hands) is that I can fairly often take a stab at the pot OTT, especially when picked up some equity on flop or turn, as people cbet too much at low stakes without much thought.

The main reason I am digging into this, is that I feel I play way too few hands atm, and need to participate more, but am not comfortable raising speculative hands too much. (like I said, will cost 20bb with a 3-bet and wasted cbet, while a pf call just costs 3bb and chances are the pfr misses the flop).

Are to talking about flatting a raise preflop or limping here? Your comments are fairly inconsistent and I don't understand what it is you are trying to get advice on.

Additionally, post a screenshot of your stats by position and we can tell you whether you are playing too wide or if you can afford to flat a bit more.

ScottishMatt said:

Are to talking about flatting a raise preflop or limping here? Your comments are fairly inconsistent and I don't understand what it is you are trying to get advice on.

Additionally, post a screenshot of your stats by position and we can tell you whether you are playing too wide or if you can afford to flat a bit more.

Click to expand...

I mean flatting raises, I never open limp (but will call in LP after other limpers). On the button I will open wide (with a raise), with many hands.

Sorry if the post is messy, the question is more a general one, and relates to preflop aggressiveness, I will try and rephrase:

Common advice is to "be the aggressor", which means to 3-bet nearly all hands you want to play. (we already agreed that open-limping is a nono anyway). PFR close to VPIP, in other words. BUT I feel that if I do this with speculative hands in LP, get caller(s), and fire a cbet on a "safe" board and get called/raised/floated, I have to give up and have lost 22bb.

Instead, if I just call with that speculative hand PF, it will cost me 3bb and I might hit 2-pair or a decent draw that I can play aggressively IP, or get out cheaply if I miss (or I could bluff x/r an EP aggressor on a low board).

Why is the latter not considered a good strategy? I generally like the idea of trapping, and just guessing that if I played this way I would probably have a PFR about half of my VPIP.

How do the higher stakes players do it, when they widen their range? Are they always betting/raising PF or just calling to trap? If they call more, their VPIP/PFR gap will widen.

Hi Beasty!

I know it seems kind of weird. The thing is with playing hands ip as the caller, is that you have to be much better than the opponent in order to do so with a wide range of hands. Opponents who play VERY straight forward for example you can call wider.

Now onto the "3bet every hand strategy". When this is said, it is usally a good tag talking about his 3 betting range, and how he folds alot of sc's and stuff, but when he doesnt, he tends to 3 bet them. And, that is acutally just fine to do. Its not the most profitable way to play, but its also fairly safe. The trouble youd run into, is if you 3 bet so often with those sc's and things, that your range becomes unbalanced (for which decent opponents can punish you).

To the aggressor go the spoils in many cases

If you are actually trying to employ small ball, your raises will actually be minimal (2 1/2 bb), so you won't necessarily be giving up a whole lot. The whole point is to play with a deep stack, raise small but often, and create a table that doesn't believe you. You are looking at a wider opponent range played against you as a negative thing, but it is actually the benefit of small ball. Nobody will believe you, so they will call you with weaker hands and make up for all the lost raises.

Keep in mind, you don't need to win every hand or get to the river all the time. You just need to appear loose to everyone else.

A poker pro told me once, " it is not how many hands you are in, it is what you do with it when you get one." That is how I play and it works for me.