How to play overpair vs overpair without initiative?

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Beasty2k

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Vs unknowns at 10 & 25NL, I find it very hard to figure out whether we're good with an overpair on say 247r board in a 3-bet pot. Some villains might shove 88 but when are we beat and not?

Do we just close eyes and try to GII on flop with JJ/TT/99 when villain doesn't give up aggression? Shove ourselves? Call a shove? And just consider it a cooler when he shows up with QQ+?

1) Say we open CO with JJ, BTN 3-bets, we call. Flop 247r, we can lead, c/c or c/r... say we c/r and he jams. Now what?

2) Say we are IP, we open CO with JJ, SB 3-bets, we call. Flop 247r, he cbets, we raise, he jams... now what?

I guess a 4bet pre is an option but nevermind that for the sake of this thread, focus on flop without initiative.
 
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skipizzle

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Highly depends on experience with the other player(s). Completely random? Yes, I say push. Otherwise, I'd play based on their previous aggressions and what other hands they've shown.
 
remus_ny

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Why calling 3bets OOP? I would 4bet or fold
 
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Beasty2k

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remus_ny said:
Why calling 3bets OOP? I would 4bet or fold
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Kind of beside the point but yeah I hear you... But say you open JJ UTG, CO 3bets... is 4bet or fold our only options you reckon?

What about IP, say raising JJ from CO and calling SB's 3b? How to we play rag flop?
 
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skipizzle said:
Highly depends on experience with the other player(s). Completely random? Yes, I say push. Otherwise, I'd play based on their previous aggressions and what other hands they've shown.
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Yeah say completely random.

So you push with 99 on a 248r flop?
 
remus_ny

remus_ny

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Beasty2k said:
Kind of beside the point but yeah I hear you... But say you open JJ UTG, CO 3bets... is 4bet or fold our only options you reckon?

What about IP, say raising JJ from CO and calling SB's 3b? How to we play rag flop?
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That depends on the history with the villain and his stats. What I said is in general (no stats no history)
 
Mr Sandbag

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Beasty2k said:
Vs unknowns at 10 & 25NL, I find it very hard to figure out whether we're good with an overpair on say 247r board in a 3-bet pot. Some villains might shove 88 but when are we beat and not?

Do we just close eyes and try to GII on flop with JJ/TT/99 when villain doesn't give up aggression? Shove ourselves? Call a shove? And just consider it a cooler when he shows up with QQ+?

1) Say we open CO with JJ, BTN 3-bets, we call. Flop 247r, we can lead, c/c or c/r... say we c/r and he jams. Now what?

2) Say we are IP, we open CO with JJ, SB 3-bets, we call. Flop 247r, he cbets, we raise, he jams... now what?

I guess a 4bet pre is an option but nevermind that for the sake of this thread, focus on flop without initiative.
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As already stated, completely player-dependent. In example 1, if villain is 3betting frequently, it'd probably be safe to 4bet him preflop. If you flat, it's definitely safe to be getting it all in on the flop against a frequent 3bettor.

In example 2, though it is also player-dependent, you have to narrow villain's range because he is 3betting when OOP.

It's not a simple question, really. In general, you may want to be very reluctant to GII against a nit and more willing to do so against a LAG.
 
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skipizzle

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Beasty2k said:
Yeah say completely random.

So you push with 99 on a 248r flop?
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If they seem overly aggressive, absolutely! They probably think they're good with ace high or top/middle pair. Two pair and trips are highly unlikely. My guess is they are raising pre-flop with an over card and any kicker.

If they haven't played the last 10 hands, probably not. There's a higher probability that they have a premium pair.
 
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