How to play against "bad" players?

whowantwhat

whowantwhat

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I play 6 player 10c/20c NLHE cash games with some friends. They (in my opinion) play very poorly when it comes to textbook poker. I am by no means an excellent player but I know there are certain things you aren't supposed to do. I play textbook poker online but I can't do it when playing with my friends because they don't play like you're supposed to. What can I do to take advantage of these flaws/errors that I have noticed?

1. They play with a very wide range. They place a lot of value in suited connectors, cards like KQ KJ QJ, suited hands, anything with an A (although they know A7 is not very good). They will also play unsuited 1 gappers, unsuited connectors in hopes of hitting a straight.

2. 90% of the time everyone flat calls the blinds with a wide range. Many of them will flat call even if someone raises 5x bb preflop if they have one of the above hole cards

3. If they flop a gutshot straight draw or a flush draw, they will bet a lot ($1 or $2 into a $1.20 pot) on the flop, and often will continue on the turn and river.

4. Many of them will usually call these bets all the way to the river on a flush or straight draw even when the pot odds are no good.

5. They think big blind is the best position because you can see what everyone does preflop. In addition, some people will do a $1 3bet from bb position after everyone limps in order to "use their position" if they have "good" hole cards.

6. A lot of aggressive 3 and 4 betting and often I find out later they had shit or were just on a draw or bluffing.

Problems with playing textbook poker:
1. The standard 3x bb raise doesnt mean anything. 99% of the time I get called by almost everybody or I'll get 3 betted with a bunch of people calling behind them.

2. Pot is often bloated from aggressive betting and draws. A 3/4 pot sized bet doesnt scare anyone off a draw and it costs a huge portion of my stack. With so many people in the game all the time, someone hits a straight or flush by the river much more often than normal

3. Its hard to put people on a range with the aggressive play and wide starting ranges
 
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whowantwhat

whowantwhat

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What do? Ive changed my play to be much more loose when it comes to starting hands. Ill limp in with crappier hands like 89 off suit because its a good price. If I have a decent starting hand I'll do the 3x bb raise. I also find myself calling bets when I normally would fold and the pot odds are no good (sorry cant edit thread anymore)
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

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Don't bluff, play for value and make them pay for their draws.

If they are 3/4-betting light then open your gii range for a 4-bet or 5-bet ship to put pressure on them when you have decent hands that are ahead of their range.

If you know they are willing to chase draws for almost any price then bet huge even oversized bets to make them pay to see those next cards and in the long run even the times they hit vs the times they don't they are losing lots to chase like they are.

abc poker (what you indicate as textbook I would asume) would be the way to play, tag style with adjustments especially if in position vs them. Live is different than online. You can often see a 10xbb open live being called by a lot of players when its a fishy table so it provides lots of opportunity for big pot poker, but also need to be able to lay down big hands and don't sweat it when huge draws come in on later streets and sometimes the crap hands will strike gold on ragedy boards.

In general if a table is loose then the right approach is to play tight and if its playing really tight then it would be to loosen up your range some but it sounds like you have a goldmine of lag's and probably not very good ones at this table so eat em up :D
 
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somersetlad9

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tighten up your ranges and play aggressively when you hit the board hard or let them to the betting if you think you can value that way
 
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jj20002

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if you think they are paying your 3xbb then raise to 5xbb or wherever you think you are going to be vying the hand with only one villan or max two

for instance if you have a monster hand and there already are 2 or 3 limpers or min raisers then reraise to 3/4 pot

these kind of player are easy to exploit if you take accurate notes on each of them, they tend to overvalue top pairs (and any kicker) and time to time any pair they get in the board is enough for them to feed strongly the pot,

actually if they have Ax and dont hit the flop they quite often think they still are ahead no matter what

so the advise (always the same) be patience and wait for the the right moment
 
fubarcdn

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This sounds like it is just a fun game that a group of friends are just playing for recreation and they don't care if they lose a buck or two in a pot.
As the others stated if you play tight aggressive you will come out way ahead in the money category but since you will only play a few hands in the whole night you probably won't have much fun.
So, if that is the way the game goes you have to decide if you are there to make money or to have fun.
This is one of the reasons I prefer online to live. You get to see a lot more hands per hour.
If you want it to get more serious you might want to suggest that you play higher stakes like maybe 50c/$1 or $1/$2 and you would probably find what you consider crazy betting will be less common.
 
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Jpetro

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Your friends are only concerned with their cards and are never even trying to put you on a range. I would start raising only premium hands preflop. Now we are raising with our value hands 5X+ and limping our implied odd hands. Now we are not inflating the pot because we don't need to preflop. They are never folding when we flop a big hand or draw so we don't need to make a big pot until we make a big hand. We play tight and keep potting all three streets for value. Do not bluff. Most of these type of players have no clue of pot size, your range or how to exploit your play. Good luck
 
n3rv

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I'll mainly just echo what the others have said. If the table is exceptionally looser and a lot more passive, then play incredibly tighter and far more aggressive!

I think if you have a premium hand you should raise enough to be heads-up with one of your friends. You say a 3x raise doesn't do that, and even a 5x raise doesn't do it, so make it 10x+ and see what happens. Someone calling weak with that type of raise gives us exceptional value.

When you hit the flop and the 3/4 pot sized bet is still keeping too many players drawing, raise the pot higher, even go all-in on the turn if they keep riding and you're ahead and the draw is still there.

They key is to bet even more for value when you are sure you are still ahead. Don't be afraid to 3-bet, and 4-bet ridiculously large when you have a premium hand.

Just make sure you fold immediately when you ever feel you are behind.
 
dj11

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IMHO, the answer to all your concerns is simple........

More BEER!:beer::beer::beer:
 
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tomnovember

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I play 6 player 10c/20c NLHE cash games with some friends. They (in my opinion) play very poorly when it comes to textbook poker. I am by no means an excellent player but I know there are certain things you aren't supposed to do. I play textbook poker online but I can't do it when playing with my friends because they don't play like you're supposed to. What can I do to take advantage of these flaws/errors that I have noticed?

1. They play with a very wide range. They place a lot of value in suited connectors, cards like KQ KJ QJ, suited hands, anything with an A (although they know A7 is not very good). They will also play unsuited 1 gappers, unsuited connectors in hopes of hitting a straight.

2. 90% of the time everyone flat calls the blinds with a wide range. Many of them will flat call even if someone raises 5x bb preflop if they have one of the above hole cards

3. If they flop a gutshot straight draw or a flush draw, they will bet a lot ($1 or $2 into a $1.20 pot) on the flop, and often will continue on the turn and river.

4. Many of them will usually call these bets all the way to the river on a flush or straight draw even when the pot odds are no good.

5. They think big blind is the best position because you can see what everyone does preflop. In addition, some people will do a $1 3bet from bb position after everyone limps in order to "use their position" if they have "good" hole cards.

6. A lot of aggressive 3 and 4 betting and often I find out later they had shit or were just on a draw or bluffing.

Problems with playing textbook poker:
1. The standard 3x bb raise doesnt mean anything. 99% of the time I get called by almost everybody or I'll get 3 betted with a bunch of people calling behind them.

2. Pot is often bloated from aggressive betting and draws. A 3/4 pot sized bet doesnt scare anyone off a draw and it costs a huge portion of my stack. With so many people in the game all the time, someone hits a straight or flush by the river much more often than normal

3. Its hard to put people on a range with the aggressive play and wide starting ranges

Just be straight forward and play ABC strategy.
 
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CubsnBearz

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I would actually see this table as an opportunity to make a decent return. Usually when you play at an extremely loose table, you are better off playing an even tighter game, even if that may seem counterintuitive. The fact that these other players are calling every bet until the river means that you are safest playing it tight aggressive. After all, you know that people are going to call you regardless of what you bet, so use that knowledge to your advantage for when you have the odds in your favor. At a table like this, all it takes is one hand to win big.
 
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kdg730

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Play tight ABC power poker. It can get very boring/annoying playing against these players but they are also who you will make the most money off of.

Raise pre with AQ+ TT+ strong hands/limp alot of speculative ones in late position and when you flop tptk or better go to value town. Never slow play against these players because they will suck out if you give too many free cards.

Also never try to bluff these players more than a c bet. As a general rule, if they call the flop they will not fold later streets
 
whowantwhat

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Played 25c/50c with these guys today and ended up profiting $70 for the night. I was at ~$100 profit at my peak but ended up getting bluffed off of the best hand a couple times.

My strategy was basically to limp in with them on a wide range, raise preflop with good hands, to play pots only when odds are good, and little bluffing. I also learned and used the 2/4 rule :)
 
TheBigFinn

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Raise and reraise your preflop monsters and limp from teh blinds and in lte position with speculative hands. if they'll let you. usually the game adapts, but God bless them if they don't.
 
hzrd123

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u just have to be worse then they are :d
 
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jb031282

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Thanks

I think you need to keep them playing be patient and the luck will run out!
 
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bluejay2220

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Textbooks great but you have to adjust to your table.
 
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nygmen2007

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Defining a bad player is the first thing. I always notice that when I am playing on bcp/acr that the tables are soft, and I find that the randomness and variance holds less weight at those sites. There is no defense for the bad player accept to hope that when you are ahead, (which will be 90 percent of time) that it holds up and you are able to make a killing of that person.
 
btc87

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If you only play good against good players - move up? :)
Against bad ones it's so simple - less bluffs and sometimes hero call as they tend to make stupid bluffs.
 
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GWU73

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I would play very loose in late position and focus on reading the players. I would also be raising hands that play well late & limping some strong hands early in hopes of getting raised y the BB.
 
Rain92

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Most important thing is dont bluff. I have been called firing third barrel with 3rd pair!! Fish dont give up hand too easily so just play abc poker should be fine.
 
TimboJonez

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Best way to play a fish is to play your big hands very aggressive and don't waste more chips then you need to on betting with position or on semi-bluffs.
 
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rocksolid124

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Best way to play in these type of games against these type of players is play really tight and go for value. No need to slow play your hands either. They are purely thinking of their own hand strength; not the type of hands you might have given your action. Sometimes it'll get boring folding all the time, but patience is important in these games.
 
Crash0veride

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I by no means consider myself to be a great player, but like to think I'm better then a good chunk of micro players.

I've noticed in the micros players call and limp far to often with a very wide range. So just play smart nothing fancy and never try to bluff just play text book poker. 80% of the hands I win in the micros the opponent was going for a draw or had a weak single or double pair and called right through to the river. Most micro players will bet what they have so if someones betting high they most likely have made a good hand. If they check raise you they most likely have a really good hand.

Go check out crushing the micros videos over at dragthebar need to be a member, but you can get free membership with rake. Full of useful tips and common mistakes made by micro players helped my game a bit.
 
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I usually raise 3bb pre flop if there are no limpers. And if there are limpers in front of me, adding +1 bb to my raise per each limper.

If i see that table is really fishy (3 fishes or more on 6max), i automatically increase my pre flop base raise to 4BB and adding +1bb for each limper.
If they still call my 4BB i will increase it more, untill i get to the point where we are heads up on flop most of the time.
 
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