How many BUY-INS really needed?

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RamdeeBen

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Hi all.

How many buy-ins are needed to play cash games? I've seen people say 100xBB. which is like reasonable I guess but what's this i hear more than anything about needing so many "buy-ins"

I'm a micro limit player, so maximum buy-in is $5.00 I think at the 0.01/0.02 limits.

However, I've also heard of people saying you need like something ridiculous like 300 "buy-ins" to cover bad beats and all-in pots if you have to reload that particular table with another $5.00.

Now, if that's the case, then to play the micro limits I'd need 300 x $5.00 buy-ins?? $1500 BR to play micro limits? Can't be right or am I reading it wrong..

ps: What do you need if you multitable?
 
TPC

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100 bb (Big Blinds) = a buyin.

So a standard buyin for .01/.02 (2nl) is actually $2.00. I know most sites set the max buyin for 2nl at $5.00 which is weird, I never understood that. That's higher than 200bb which is what a standard deepstack max buyin is.

Anyway, For the micros the standard bank roll management (BRM) is 20 buyins. I would say 20 buyins is good enough from 2nl up to 25nl. I would do a little more for 50nl like maybe 30 or 35.

100nl and above is where you'll want to make sure you have enough buyins to handle the swings. So you'll want to start using the 100 buyins for 100nl and up.

Keep in mind using proper BRM means dropping down in limits if you lose buyins. If you are a winning player, you can never go broke using proper BRM.

So What I've always told people, if you are going to play full ring online. Deposit $200.00, that way you will be rolled for .05/.10 (10nl). If you lose 10 buyins, your BR will be $100 and you would drop to .02/.05 (5nl). If you lost ten buyins at 5nl, your BR would now be $50.00 and you would then drop down to 2nl. If you start at the bottom, just deposit $50, you would only be rolled for 2nl and not have a limit to drop down to. I always suggest, to start in the middle, make that $200 deposit and start at 10nl, there isn't much of a difference in play from 2nl to 10nl.

If you are going to play more than one table, that doesn't effect BRM. You still buying in for ten bucks if you are playing 10nl. It doesn't matter that you have $80.00 sitting on eight different tables. Just think of it as eight different sessions, they just happen to be being played at the same time.

You are probably a new player and asking about proper BRM is a good place to start. I would suggest adding tables at a very slow rate as you get comfortable. Don't rush into adding a lot of tables other wise it's easy to get overwhelmed and make a lot of mistakes. Just take your time, the games aren't going anywhere.
 
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xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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yea 20 buy ins seems to be enough for micro limits, but 100 would help you to "just be safe"
 
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RamdeeBen

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Ok thanks for the replies guys! Great post TPC. Thankyou.

However, I'm sure I've seen posts all over saying you need 300 buy-ins for cash games, is that incorrect then?
 
TPC

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Ok thanks for the replies guys! Great post TPC. Thankyou.

However, I'm sure I've seen posts all over saying you need 300 buy-ins for cash games, is that incorrect then?

You're welcome.

The only time I've heard or seen 300 buyins was for limit holdem. Limit holdem is a lot more up and down because you can't price villains out on draws and ect. I don't know a lot about limit holdem, I've never played it.
 
Hambone8705

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This has been discussed on this site numerous times. Search bankroll Management and start thumbing through them. I'm sure you will find a plan that you are comfortable with, but for most cases TPC's response pretty much nailed it.
 
Hambone8705

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Ok thanks for the replies guys! Great post TPC. Thankyou.

However, I'm sure I've seen posts all over saying you need 300 buy-ins for cash games, is that incorrect then?

Are you sure they were talking buy ins not BB (big bet in Limit Holdem)??
 
Theblueduce

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I like to use the rule of thumb of 100-200 BB buy in's as outlined in the Cash Games Vol 1 and 2 by Dan Harrington...He explains in great detail stack sizes with regards to short stacks-medium stacks and deep stacks what they mean and how these stacks realte to buy in's and the type hands one plays at the cash games.
 
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The 300 is for limit holdem, and it is not buyings but it is Big Bets. so to play 1/2 limit you would wants at least $600.
 
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cam84

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i whould say 300bb is good for cash games buyin it whould b fair dont you ??
 
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3BeTmEplz

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Now, if that's the case, then to play the micro limits I'd need 300 x $5.00 buy-ins?? $1500 BR to play micro limits? Can't be right or am I reading it wrong..


LOL@needing $1500 to play NL2

It really depends on :

  1. How you play
  2. How many tables you play
  3. How tough (theoretically) the games you play are
For eg.

If I played 4 tables of NL10 vs players I had a comfortable edge on, playing a low variance tight aggressive style, then 20 buyins would be fine.

But

If I played 12 tables of NL100 vs players who where very compotent, playing a high variance loose aggressive stlye, then 100 buyins would be more suffice.
 
rssurfer54

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100 bb (Big Blinds) = a buyin.

If you are a winning player, you can never go broke using proper BRM.

This is incorrect. The only way to have no chance of going broke is to have an infinite number of buyins. Otherwise there is still some (very small with good brm) chance of going broke.
 
TPC

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This is incorrect. The only way to have no chance of going broke is to have an infinite number of buyins. Otherwise there is still some (very small with good brm) chance of going broke.

Wrong, you don't understand BRM. If you are a winning player it's impossible to go broke. You can't start with a roll at the bottom stakes and think you are using proper BRM. You aren't, you might be rolled for the limit you are playing but if you are playing at the bottom level you have no room to drop a level if needed.

The point of BRM is to be able to move up and down in stakes as your BR allows. So you need to start at a level where you have room to move down if needed. If you are a winning player there will be times you move down a couple of levels and then move back up, but you will never go broke. If you continue to go broke then you are not a winning player and BRM will only help you go broke as slow as possible.
 
Jagsti

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Wrong, you don't understand BRM. If you are a winning player it's impossible to go broke. You can't start with a roll at the bottom stakes and think you are using proper BRM. You aren't, you might be rolled for the limit you are playing but if you are playing at the bottom level you have no room to drop a level if needed.

The point of BRM is to be able to move up and down in stakes as your BR allows. So you need to start at a level where you have room to move down if needed. If you are a winning player there will be times you move down a couple of levels and then move back up, but you will never go broke. If you continue to go broke then you are not a winning player and BRM will only help you go broke as slow as possible.

It is very possible for 'winning players' to go broke b/c they may opt for an aggressive brm style. However as you have pointed out most winning players shouldn't go broke as long as they use a 'move up/move down' brm.

What most beginners underestimate, and a lot of experienced players for that matter, is variance. It's very possible to go on a 20k, 30k, 50k hand heaters and think 'Yeah I rock I'm gonna move up', then before you know it your on d/swong citeh and most of your roll is lining the pockets of your opponents.

IMO the more buy ins you have, the more you can reduce the psychological affects of variance. So don't be in a rush to move up, play a good quantity of hands to determine you actually are a winning player at your limit. Once you have the confidence and bankroll to support your move to the next level then go for it, but be prepared to move down if required.
 
PTR

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The amount of buyins you need for proper bankroll management depends on 2 things: the variance of the game and your skill level.

Variance
The higher the variance the more buyins you should have in your bankroll. PLO has more variance than hold'em. 6max has more variance than full ring. Heads up has more variance than 6max. A LAG strategy has more variance than a TAG strategy.

Skill Level
The higher your winrate, the smaller bankroll you need.

Here are some quick rules of thumb:
If you're an extremely good player (6BB/100+) playing a low variance game, 20 buyins should be enough.
If you're an OK player (2-5BB/100) playing a medium variance game (like 6-max NLHE), 35 buyins should be enough.
If you're slightly above breakeven (1BB/100 or less) and playing a high variance game (like HU PLO), 100 buyins is reasonable.

Also, you should have a losing threshold. If you lose more than X number of buyins, you commit to moving down in stakes.
 
TylerN

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Ya throughout this forum there is countless threads on bankroll management. If u have 100 bb for 2nl does that mean for 20 buy ins u wuld need 40$?
 
Sean Pilgrim

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100 bb (Big Blinds) = a buyin.

So a standard buyin for .01/.02 (2nl) is actually $2.00. I know most sites set the max buyin for 2nl at $5.00 which is weird, I never understood that. That's higher than 200bb which is what a standard deepstack max buyin is.

Anyway, For the micros the standard bank roll management (BRM) is 20 buyins. I would say 20 buyins is good enough from 2nl up to 25nl. I would do a little more for 50nl like maybe 30 or 35.

100nl and above is where you'll want to make sure you have enough buyins to handle the swings. So you'll want to start using the 100 buyins for 100nl and up.

Keep in mind using proper BRM means dropping down in limits if you lose buyins. If you are a winning player, you can never go broke using proper BRM.

So What I've always told people, if you are going to play full ring online. Deposit $200.00, that way you will be rolled for .05/.10 (10nl). If you lose 10 buyins, your BR will be $100 and you would drop to .02/.05 (5nl). If you lost ten buyins at 5nl, your BR would now be $50.00 and you would then drop down to 2nl. If you start at the bottom, just deposit $50, you would only be rolled for 2nl and not have a limit to drop down to. I always suggest, to start in the middle, make that $200 deposit and start at 10nl, there isn't much of a difference in play from 2nl to 10nl.

If you are going to play more than one table, that doesn't effect BRM. You still buying in for ten bucks if you are playing 10nl. It doesn't matter that you have $80.00 sitting on eight different tables. Just think of it as eight different sessions, they just happen to be being played at the same time.

You are probably a new player and asking about proper BRM is a good place to start. I would suggest adding tables at a very slow rate as you get comfortable. Don't rush into adding a lot of tables other wise it's easy to get overwhelmed and make a lot of mistakes. Just take your time, the games aren't going anywhere.

This is extremely well laid out TPC. This should be stickied somewhere.
 
psy0nyd3

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Yeah Sean I agree. TPC's explanations, as well as Michael(I think thats his name) from PRT's explanation should be stickied and closed at the top of the learning poker forum.. I've only been posting really actively for a couple of months and theres ALWAYS a BRM discussion going as far as I've seen.
 
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