How long to beat the micro stakes??

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Grindabod

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Hi
I have been playing 2NL since february and have played close to 10K hands I think. I have read a few books like Theory of Poker and Harrington's first volume on cash games. I have poker tracker and Im trying to keep my game tight.
Like others I get beaten by LAG's who keep drawing out on me and I keep loosing my stack fast and it is very very frustrating, but I will keep going for a while yet.
I would love to hear from others who have beaten the micro stakes, how long did it take and how did you guys do it? Did you buy training programs etc?
I play on party poker.
Cheers
 
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cheaptrix

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read and post hand history. easiest, cheapest and fastest way to get better at this game. imo
 
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If you can afford it i recommend a deposit and get out of 2NL. Its just wait for a monster and shove imo.
 
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whats wrong with depositing?
At that level people are reasoning junk calls with "its only $2"
Bluffs are almost impossible, and people are making crazy raises (% compared to his full $2)
So getting out of the limits is going to take more luck than at other limits and good plays are less significant.
 
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Ducky7

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Really depends on your game. If you are playing solidly and just sticking to what you know as the basics as TAG then you will move out of 2NL, its hard to put a number on how many hands or how many hours you are going to need to clock up. But sticking to TAG will get you out of 2NL if you are persistant. Have you got good BRM?
 
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Big_Rudy

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@OP, I was fortunate, I guess. I started beating the micros from day one. I had a little live experience before I began online play though. Really, if you're having trouble beating 2nl there is something seriously wrong with your game. Rarely bluff, value-bet relentlessly, punish limpers; profit. EZ game.

whats wrong with depositing?
At that level people are reasoning junk calls with "its only $2"
Bluffs are almost impossible, and people are making crazy raises (% compared to his full $2)
So getting out of the limits is going to take more luck than at other limits and good plays are less significant.

Nothing at all wrong with depositing. It's the bolded bit that is in error. It's not luck. All it takes is a tiny bit of skill. Good play is just as significant as at other levels. I might even say more so, since there are plenty of fish. If you can't beat them; you aren't making many "good plays". You're going to have to build your game anyway; might as well start at the micros where its cheapest.
 
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fl0p247

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whats wrong with depositing?
At that level people are reasoning junk calls with "its only $2"
Bluffs are almost impossible, and people are making crazy raises (% compared to his full $2)
So getting out of the limits is going to take more luck than at other limits and good plays are less significant.

This is the reason you should stay at 2NL and why my recent serious attempt at poker has given me a 17bb/100 winrate over 11k hands I've played so far.

Forget about the bluffs. Bluffs shouldn't be made every other hand. A player in my opinion can tell when a bluff is right (for example, you're playing a tight player who you can tell hasn't hit his card yet and bet 70% of the pot on the river, making them fold. I've done it, it works if done right and if the time is right).

I love people who go by the mentality "this is only $2" and shove. These people will contribute to you getting out of 2NL. For example, I just had a session where I lost half a buy-in because I folded KK when there was an A on the flop, and sure enough, 2 other guys had an ace. I recovered from this loss thanks to a bunch of players using this mentality and 3bet shoving my bet on the flop when I had QQ w/ JTs (dry board) and another player 3bet shoving me his shortstack pf w/ J7o when I had 99 (they did this enough times for me to understand they didn't care about their stack).

2NL is easy to beat if you're conservative about what you do and can take advantage of the free money to be had. Not to mention it's a very cheap way to learn. Depositing and going bust in higher limits that you're not ready to play yet isn't going to help your poker.
 
Demonomania

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OP, just grind and move up when you're rolled for higher stakes. Also take cheaptrix's advice and post any troubling HHs to the hand analysis section on the forum. It'll help reform the way you've been looking at certain situations, and possibly spot some leaks in your game you didn't notice before. The cash game members that respond to that section of the forum are incredible.

gl
 
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-----bryce

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Just need to take notes on the players that you play with and youll see there tendencies and youll crush them
 
KingCurtis

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I am also on the side of either saving money or if you already have it, just deposit and play at a higher level. This has been said many times before in similar posts like this. Basically, it's not that you are wasting your time, it is beatable and has been beat and you can learn a lot but it is much better to start at say .10/.25+ and even here the players can be similar to super micro play.
 
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If you went to a job offer and they gave you the option of working really hard for $2 an hour would you take it? If you are in it for fun then by all means stay where you are at. But if you have any hopes of making anything any time soon then boost your BR. "How much is your time worth to you?"
 
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jacor

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The oponents play totally diferent on higher stakes they play more aggresive. You should go as high as your bankroll lets you.
 
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I won a few hundred right out of the gate playing tournaments, then slowly lost about $300 in cash games my first go and cashed out about $100. Then 2 years later I came back to online poker and deposited $10 on FullTilt: december 26 2010: February 1, I had around $70 and made a jump to $10nl 6max. By March I was Playing $25nl 6max. By Black Friday I had $1600 playing $50nl; some Rush and some 6max. It took a total of about 120k hands without a HUD until just before The end. I took some bankroll risks, moving up at 7-10 buy ins until $50nl, but I made the moves during a fantastic 10k hand rush. I did try $100 nl but lost a couple buy ins and had to drop down and rebuild.
I just started again with a minimum deposit on a merge site. I am doing much better than I did last time. :)
Good luck with your journey.
 
Demonomania

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If you went to a job offer and they gave you the option of working really hard for $2 an hour would you take it?

Sure, if I'm not qualified and experienced to make more.

OP doesn't sound too qualified if he's not progressing at the lowest of micros. He probably needs to gain further experience and self examine what is keeping him from moving up, without depositing and possibly continuing to lose.
 
Cafeman

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At that level people are reasoning junk calls with "its only $2"
Bluffs are almost impossible, and people are making crazy raises (% compared to his full $2)
So getting out of the limits is going to take more luck than at other limits and good plays are less significant.
impliedfacepalm.jpg
 
alaskabill

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OP,

Value bet relentlessly

Don't bluff.

Don't pay off. When a loose passive player starts raising you let it go unless you're holding close to the nuts.

That's all you need to do. Also, as suggested by others, post hands.

If you are looking for a book on the topic get Blackrain79's book "Crushing the Microstakes". It will tell you everything that you ever wanted to know about beating 2NL up to about 10NL at least in step by step detail. Also Blackrain79 is a member here as well as a coach at Drag the Bar. He often posts in the cash games hand analysis sub forum and would gladly answer any questions that you might have about his book.

Don't move up stakes without learning to beat the stakes below. If you aren't beating 2NL your game has serious leaks and if you move up without addressing them you will bleed money.

Good luck
 
micromachine

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OP,

Value bet relentlessly

Don't bluff.

Don't pay off. When a loose passive player starts raising you let it go unless you're holding close to the nuts.

That's all you need to do. Also, as suggested by others, post hands.

If you are looking for a book on the topic get Blackrain79's book "Crushing the Microstakes". It will tell you everything that you ever wanted to know about beating 2NL up to about 10NL at least in step by step detail. Also Blackrain79 is a member here as well as a coach at Drag the Bar. He often posts in the cash games hand analysis sub forum and would gladly answer any questions that you might have about his book.

Don't move up stakes without learning to beat the stakes below. If you aren't beating 2NL your game has serious leaks and if you move up without addressing them you will bleed money.

Good luck

Definitely this.

OP, you have only played 10K hands, which is practically nothing. 2nl is very beatable, work on your game and keep practicing and you will do it.

It has taken me almost a year since taking cash games seriously to work my way up from 2nl to 25nl using conservative BRM.
 
Arjonius

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Whenever I see talk about moving up to higher stakes to get away from poor players, I can't help but crack a little smile. The person is implicitly saying that he doesn't want to learn how to adapt to beat those poor players, and that he'd rather pin his hopes on moving up and finding the players there play the way he'd like them to - often categorized as "more sensibly" or similar - so that he can more readily play within his comfort zone. How sensible is that kind of thinking? not very, of course.
 
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Hardcorecake

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I got out of microstakes by practicing poor brm. First time I ever deposited I put in $25 at pstars...I avoided cash to start out, well because I could go play cash games live local 1 4 holdem game that was super juicy. I basically went online to get what I couldn't get in person which is/was large MTTs. I suggest them great way to learn poker and what always got me was hey I can literally risk 3.30 for a chance to win over 1k...your not going to sit down at a micro table cash game with 3.30 and walk away up over 1k....just not going to happen. I had about $17 left when I bought into a 3.30 MTT tourney with over 1k ppl in it, don't honestly remeber how many ppl this was yrs ago..I ended up taking 1st and won over 1100 dollars. I won by being super patient, played good cards, and won more flips than lost aka got lucky.
 
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Grindabod

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Thanks for all the replies
I have a good BRM I think. I have deposited 20£ a few times since I started when my account was 0) and I want to be able to build that up to 80$ before I move up. I can totally see the sence in being able to beat the weaker players before taking on better players, but it is just hard to be drawn out on when you think you are playing the way more experienced players recomend.
I was playing good during May, broke even, and then I downloaded poker tracker and saw that my VPIP was almost 40. The last 2000 hands I have played with a VPIP of 24 and PFR 9 and this has killed me. I don't play any hidden big hands anymore because I don't limp or raise a little with a low suited connector anymore such as 89s and there for I dont win many big pots anymore. It does feel like I have been super unlucky regarding being drawn on all the time but could there be another exlanation:
Is it possible that it is better for me to have a high VPIP and fish for monsters by limping when the table allows this.?
I know this is counter to what everybody says about beating the micro stakes but this is how it feels just now.
I will post some hands as well in the appropriate section.
Cheers
 
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andrewsz1991

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Microstakes I find to be much harder than mid stakes. The mid it's a lot harder to call a 2 or 3 dollar raise than a 12 cent raise. You find a lot less speculative hands being played
 
fletchdad

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OP,

Value bet relentlessly


Don't bluff.

Don't pay off. When a loose passive player starts raising you let it go unless you're holding close to the nuts.

That's all you need to do. Also, as suggested by others, post hands.

If you are looking for a book on the topic get Blackrain79's book "Crushing the Microstakes". It will tell you everything that you ever wanted to know about beating 2NL up to about 10NL at least in step by step detail. Also Blackrain79 is a member here as well as a coach at Drag the Bar. He often posts in the cash games hand analysis sub forum and would gladly answer any questions that you might have about his book.

Don't move up stakes without learning to beat the stakes below. If you aren't beating 2NL your game has serious leaks and if you move up without addressing them you will bleed money.

Good luck

Good post, IMO the bolded are the most important points/tips, altho nothing is off.

There are profitable bluffing spots IMO (mainly semi bluffs where you have some value, and then vs a multi tabler who is one of the only players where you may have some FE) but they are all specific, few and far between, and you must have a reason and a read. For the most part, bluffs at .02nl are not going to be your value spots since a lot of players simply do not fold. You must know a players tendencies.
 
Poker Orifice

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whats wrong with depositing?
At that level people are reasoning junk calls with "its only $2"
Bluffs are almost impossible, and people are making crazy raises (% compared to his full $2)
So getting out of the limits is going to take more luck than at other limits and good plays are less significant.
This ^ is obviously is sooooooo wrong. OP, please don't pay any attention to this.
If you went to a job offer and they gave you the option of working really hard for $2 an hour would you take it? If you are in it for fun then by all means stay where you are at. But if you have any hopes of making anything any time soon then boost your BR. "How much is your time worth to you?"
Most players starting out are defnitely not playing looking for a decent hourly return. Instead they're looking to gain a better understanding of the game & gain a sound understanding of the fundamentals. This can easily be done at 2nl (fwiw, there are ALOT of 2nl players who've played 100's of thousands of hands at that level).
Take your time & gradually move up. If you're not able to beat 2nl after 10k hands, try posting some HH's (& read other's). There's also some decent strategy articles you could read to get a better grip on fundamentals.
 
B

Big_Rudy

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This is the reason you should stay at 2NL and why my recent serious attempt at poker has given me a 17bb/100 winrate over 11k hands I've played so far.

Forget about the bluffs. Bluffs shouldn't be made every other hand. A player in my opinion can tell when a bluff is right (for example, you're playing a tight player who you can tell hasn't hit his card yet and bet 70% of the pot on the river, making them fold. I've done it, it works if done right and if the time is right).

I love people who go by the mentality "this is only $2" and shove. These people will contribute to you getting out of 2NL. For example, I just had a session where I lost half a buy-in because I folded KK when there was an A on the flop, and sure enough, 2 other guys had an ace. I recovered from this loss thanks to a bunch of players using this mentality and 3bet shoving my bet on the flop when I had QQ w/ JTs (dry board) and another player 3bet shoving me his shortstack pf w/ J7o when I had 99 (they did this enough times for me to understand they didn't care about their stack).

2NL is easy to beat if you're conservative about what you do and can take advantage of the free money to be had. Not to mention it's a very cheap way to learn. Depositing and going bust in higher limits that you're not ready to play yet isn't going to help your poker.

^^Solid reasoning here, imo. And, in several other responses as well itt.

If you went to a job offer and they gave you the option of working really hard for $2 an hour would you take it? If you are in it for fun then by all means stay where you are at. But if you have any hopes of making anything any time soon then boost your BR. "How much is your time worth to you?"

Time really isn't the issue here. OP can't beat 2nl. He won't beat higher by simply depositing without first fixing his game. Simple reasoning should tell you the lowest limit should be the easiest to beat. If OP can't routinely and easily beat that long-term; he'll never consistently beat higher without making some game improvements. You can work on those game improvements by losing less, or losing more. Your choice.
 
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