How does rake lose you money in the long run?

Pokergambler11

Pokergambler11

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I play online so rake isn't as bad as people make it seem like in live games. But people say that because of the large rake you actually lose money? Even good players find it hard to make money in 1/2 no limit games apparently? But if you are winning most of your hands then wouldn't you be on top of the rake? For example, someone said if you played 1000 hands in a year, every hand you played took on average $5 rake then you have given the casino $5000. Yeah that is a lot but if you are winning 3/4 of the hands and make $20 per winning hand that is $15, 000 minus the rake which is now $10, 000 profit. So this is still a decent amount of money? Rake doesn't put you in debt unless you are losing half or more of your hands?
 
c9h13no3

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The rake cuts down on how much you win, and you still lose the same amount.

Its common for players to get rakeback deals, where they get back 30% of the rake they pay. When I was playing, my monthly rakeback check was often higher than my winnings.

A high rake is not trivial, it pulls money off the table wicked fast.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Think of it this way - in a 1/2 live game, say the average rake per hand is $4. 30 hands per hour x $4 = $120/9 players = $13.33/hr per person paid to the casino in rake. So you have to beat the game for over $13/hr just to break even. Unless the rake is unusually high 1/2 live games are still very beatable, but if the cap is $100 or the game is 1/1 it's going to be difficult/impossible to win.

The math above is obviously a very rough estimate but the point is the same. Also keep in mind rake doesn't just affect us when we win pots. It pulls money off the table every hand, which means there is less money for us to win. Usually this is rectified by new players coming into the game, but if we are in a game where no one leaves for awhile and nobody tops up, stacks are going to get shorter and shorter.
 
EXTREMUM

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This is why pre-flop aggression IP is gold, on cash tables. Also, avoid PLO/8 cash tables, like the plague.
 
detroitjunkie

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This is why pre-flop aggression IP is gold, on cash tables. Also, avoid PLO/8 cash tables, like the plague.

AGREED. As juicy as those plo/8 games look, they are terrible for live/cash - great for tourneys though

Rake is less significant the higher up you play. It does take some money out but thats the price to play. Rake affects the tighter players less.
 
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KALUGAJ

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It's true . Rakeback is not paid, because they're trying to play a lot of hands, and of course many hands overheating.
 
fred_antunes

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RAKEBACK = % of the rake you get back to playing in a certain room
 
orsino12

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Say you are a player who wins exactly 50% of the hands you play and every time you have $10 in the pot and the rake is 5%. Every hand you lose, you lose $10, every hand you win, you win just $9.50 so you lose even though you win exactly as often as you lose so you have to win more often than you lose just to break even.
 
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rugelis

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I read that there are only 25% of poker players who are in profit. If there was no rake i think it would be like 40%
 
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Rumme1

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The rake cuts down on how much you win, and you still lose the same amount.

Its common for players to get rakeback deals, where they get back 30% of the rake they pay. When I was playing, my monthly rakeback check was often higher than my winnings.

A high rake is not trivial, it pulls money off the table wicked fast.

I once played in a regular game that was pot limit hi stakes. there would be 50 grand on the table with 10 players . The houseman raised the chop from $5 on a $100 pot...to $10 on a $150 pot....I quit the game because I thought the rake was to much. I estimate the houseman was making 300 grand per year in rake . He ran 3 full tables on friday night and sometimes the game would run into sunday. I do give him credit for having great food, drinks, snacks...even a waitress , but the rake was just to much for my tastes.

Basically, every pot had $10 taken out, then you were expected to tip the dealer at least $2 - $5 ..then you had a waitress that expected tips, etc...since I only play poker for income, I could not deal with so much money being taken off the table and out of the game...the hosueman did not play, the dealers did not play, and the waitress did not play...so all that cash was taken out of the game and kept out of the game.
 
tocloc238

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At my local game, the 1/2 game is 10% rake, capped at $15! Sucks! So its not unusual during a long session where the whole table is losing money, lol. You know its insane, when you could end up HU- and possibly be risking $50 to win just $35.
 
tocloc238

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My post should be risk $50 to win just $40, then they take out BJJ $2 and then whatever you tip.
 
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jony blaz99

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I play online so rake isn't as bad as people make it seem like in live games. But people say that because of the large rake you actually lose money? Even good players find it hard to make money in 1/2 no limit games apparently? But if you are winning most of your hands then wouldn't you be on top of the rake? For example, someone said if you played 1000 hands in a year, every hand you played took on average $5 rake then you have given the casino $5000. Yeah that is a lot but if you are winning 3/4 of the hands and make $20 per winning hand that is $15, 000 minus the rake which is now $10, 000 profit. So this is still a decent amount of money? Rake doesn't put you in debt unless you are losing half or more of your hands?
No Rake does not put me in debt, if you play well then you do not think about such things.
 
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Without rake these games wouldn't operate so it's not really possible to avoid rake.. Best situation is when you get to higher stakes at certain casinos you will just pay a fixed rate for the hour or 2 and no hands will be raked by the dealer..
 
vinnie

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No Rake does not put me in debt, if you play well then you do not think about such things.

I disagree with this. Playing well at the lower live limits (like $1/$2) requires that you do think about such things. Sure, you know you're doing fine if you're showing a net positive, because you're obviously beating the rake. But, there are some plays and hands that become unprofitable because of the rake structure. Basically, you want to avoid a lot of the small pot hands where you don't have a dominant edge. Those pots are raked highest (relatively) and your edge can get wiped out by the rake.

Even if you're beating the rake, you should have an idea of how much it is. One of the benefits of online play is that I can see how much rake I've paid. In the long run, I've made more for the sites than I've made for myself, and that's as a long term winner. I used to have rakeback payments that rivaled my actual earnings for a month.

I joked with my friend when Carbon gave me ~$70 in incentives to come back. He was amazed that they would just give me free money. I told him that they'd make it back and more in rake if I played on their site. From July 17th until today, they've raked $161.49 from my winnings. I've cleared some extra money from their bonus program, but in all they've gotten more from my play than they gave me to come back.

The amount of money that silently slips off the tables on a poker site can be mind-blowing. And, the smaller your edge, the more the rake hurts you. You can't really take a 55/45 flip in some games, because the rake wipes out your advantaged.

* It was really more like $50 in incentives because I had to play it through their casino and sports book before it was released for poker. And neither of those have a +EV expectation for me.
 
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ranma187

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My casino takes about $5 max at 1/2. plus $1 for the high hand jackpot. and also customary tip. I try to play tight aggressive, going in with dominant hands most times and also trying to get pots over 100 If I'm sure to win. Unfortunately most regs here like to play small pots and just pass money to the rake...
 
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Broon1234

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Live having a lower min rake is killer. Online it will just lower your hourly win rate but it is certainly beatable.
 
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