How Do You View Poker Players Who Don't Understand Odds

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but my question to you is this: How do you view a poker player that doesn't understand odds? Please vote on the top and replay below to explain why.

I would say these people CAN be mediocre players without knowing the odds. Just because someone doesn't understand odds doesn't mean they are drawing to every river. Before I started playing odds I would always determine whether I should call a bet by the size of my stack. The bigger the stack, the more likely I was to chase. The smaller the stack, the tighter I would play and I would rarely chase. Did playing odds change my style? Not a whole lot, just a bit less chasing with a big stack.

I think if you took the whole world of poker players and divided them into those who understand the odds (let's say, could quickly tell you whether a flush draw or open ended straight draw is preferable) and those who really do not at all, you'd find the group the understands odds, on average, is a better group of more profitable players.

That said, I think we have to be specific about what we mean by "understands odds". Traditionally we mean a person who can calculate odds and outs and make optimal calls/folds on that basis, and then I believe the above still holds true.

However, I think that short changes some of the people in the other group who couldn't tell you down to the chip the size of the bet they would call with an open ended straight flush draw, yet have played enough poker to understand the basics. Someone who hates math but has played 100,000 hands would probably have a feel for things and based on experience, might understand when to do what. I respect both instinct and the subconscious mind's ability to do things better than my conscious mind sometimes.

So I guess my answer is, if you mean someone who just doesn't care about odds at all, yeah they'll probably suck. If you mean someone who doesn't do the math but tries to use discipline based on experience, I could see that player doing reasonably well too.

A good solid player that doesn't understand pot odds is an oxymoron. Pot odds are fundamental to poker - the single, most important thing. Any dog can have his day, but long term you'll lose if you keep getting the money in when the oddsare against you.

robwhufc said:

Pot odds are fundamental to poker - the single, most important thing.

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Gotta agree with rob. I think any poker pro will tell you that pot odds are the most important concept to grasp, the one thing you have to know starting out. The rest comes from thousands of hands played.

Beriac said:

If you mean someone who doesn't do the math but tries to use discipline based on experience, I could see that player doing reasonably well too.

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I agree. You can still do the right thing without knowing exactly why. I mean, there are all sorts of "tips" that are based on odds and equity, but don't actually reference them. Like "small pocket pairs are okay to play before the flop if you can see the flop for less than 10% of your stack" is of course based on the idea of likelyhood of hitting a set, vs. the large implied odds that you have if you succeed. You don't have to know the odds of hitting a set to "learn" how to play small pocket pairs.

"Suited connectors play better in multiway pots" is another one of them. I'm sure I've read somewhere that you should avoid chasing flushes in heads-up pots as well. It all boils down to the same thing: Using "standard plays" as a crutch that allows you to not actually care about the odds, but mostly make the right plays anyway.

Edit: I chose "mediocre." You can still be a winning player at lower limits without knowing much about odds, but playing according to pieces of wisdom like the ones I quoted above. As soon as your competition becomes tougher, however, you need to be able to extract value out of situations where the line is not as clearly drawn, and then you need to be able to look at your hand, your opponent's probable hand, the size of the pot and the odds that you're getting, and make a play based on that information.

And Tim, type it 10 times, StraTeGy

I voted on mediocre player. When I started to become a better player by studying and reading I didnt know how to apply odds to hands and use them to make a decision. I found that a sound strategy and persaverance can take some way. Now I do agree as well that if you want to become a great player and excel to another level beyond that you must know odds and how to apply them. I also believe that your ability to read and classify a player is just as important too.

I voted for depends, I like Beriacs answer, and don't feel the need to add to it.

I voted depends. Soley on that I am still learning the strategies myself.

I don't know if this even matters but someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't I hear Jennifer Harmon say sometime ago that she wasn't much of a Pot Odds kind of a gal?

I think anyone that's played a decent amount of poker and cared to look at them, knows what kind of odds they're up against. Whether you know exact odds by heart is another story...but I still don't think a great player NEEDs to know them down to a decimal point as a necessity.

DESSERTLADY said:

didn't I hear Jennifer Harmon say sometime ago that she wasn't much of a Pot Odds kind of a gal?

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I think Phil Ivey has made some comment to the same effect at some point.

I don't know if it's any indication one way or the other, but from reading Phil Hellmuth's book, "Play Poker like the Pros", he seems to be going more for the feel of the game than for the numbers as well. Although, that might be his way of explaining his plays, not that he dismisses the odds behind it.

The human mind is incredibly adept at seeing patterns and adopting intuitive behavior based on past experiences. With enough hands played, an intelligent player should be able to adjust to near-optimal strategy eventually. Of course, "eventually" could be a couple of lifetimes worth of hands played, so learning about odds may save you a couple of millions worth of accumulated losses, but still. Experience is king; Theory is just a less expensive way of learning things.

Again... I'm so confused on this concept of "stragedy", lmao. But yeah, here's the skinny.

A player who does not understand pot odds will inevitably be a LOSING player in ring games. Not knowing if a call is profitable or not is a very bad thing for ye ole bankroll. And of course not knowing how much to bet to give your opponents bad odds is a bad thing as well.

However with the right "stragedy" err... i mean strategy! you can be a successful tournament player. But, understanding odds still helps a great deal.

I don't view them, I target them.

robwhufc said:

Pot odds are fundamental to poker - the single, most important thing.

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I think Starting hands would be number 1.
Postion would be #2 if not #2, then #1b.

I don't disagree that pot-odds can be important, but I don't think they are #1.

robwhufc said:

And Tim, type it 10 times, StraTeGy

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Strategy
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Strategy

No wonder no one on here take me seriously.