How do you define "ready to move up" ?

E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
There's been a lot of interesting debate about the merits of play at different levels, and one thing many members have stated is that you should not move up a level until you are either "crushing the level you are on" or "ready".

I thought it would be interesting to hear what defines "crushing" and "ready".

What criteria do you use to determine whether someone is both crushing and ready ?

Is the natural progression to go form 2 FR to to 2 6-Max to 5 FR to 5 6-max etc ?

Let's step through from a 2NL player who wants to reach 25 NL - how would he know he is ready to move up at each stage (2 to 5, 5 to 10, 10 to 25) ? Do these goals differ if the aim is to be an online pro grinding many, many tables, or a good solid poker player who is is learning for live cash games - is there a difference ?

I am very interested to hear your opinions. Thanks folks.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
Its pretty simple really. Crushing a limit means your beating it for more than 10BB/100. anything above 0BB/100 is a good thing though. common winrates are 5BB/100 at 2NL but good players can easily do more than 10BB/100 IMHO(esp at 2NL)

The bigger the sample, the more certain you are it isn't just "rungood".

I would think a 100K sample is a descent one but you could get a good idea at 50K hands about which way your going.


As far as the when to move up part. Lets say you start at 2NL with 25 buy ins ,meaning you start with 50$. Once that money gets to 120$ and you now have like around 25 buy ins for the next level, you can move up and do some shot taking. When/if you fall back to below 100$, you can move back to 2NL and try again. If you move up ,then you keep playing tll your roll is at 250$ and then move to 10NL.


Most people follow a BRM strategy if this type. The "ready" to move up part refers to the fact that you have put enough volume into the previous level and are a proven winner, so now your roll and experience has made you "ready" to try and beat the next level.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
As a personal input from a relative Noob to serious poker, here's what I look at for myself.

I like what Vinyl says above, but in addition to that:

  • Playing at a lower level prepares you to be immune from tilting and from the pain caused by bad beats. In a way, these are related (as the 2nd can cause the first) but they are different too. Bad beats are going to happen, AT ANY LEVEL, and the more you play, the more they happen. You could spend 24 hours looking at bad beats on the WSOP, etc, and still not probably see every one
  • Learning to think of the game bets as bbs and not cash. It's when you're at 0.01/0.02 it's easy to make a stupid call 5 bbs and think "Ah hell, it's only a dime" (God knows I have been very guilty of that) but that doesn't work when you get to higher levels. I know I need to get used to thinking in bbs and % of stack instead of cash value.
  • Low levels is a chance to improve your own knowledge of "advanced basics" such as range, how to bet properly in certain situations and what to recognize as tells in players.
  • Learn BRM (as Vinyl explained above). Don't move up until you have the BR, and stay there until you have the BR to move up. That continues for ever IMHO unless you have someone with a really deep stack (or wallet) to stake you.
  • Learn to analyze your own play properly. It's fine for Noobs like me to ask advice on hands, but I need to learn to accurately analyze my own.

These are just a few for me off the top of my head, I know I'm missing a couple or more. It's a never ending list because the more I learn about the game, the more I realize how much I don't know.
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
Thanks SeaRun, but most of what you mentioned can't be measured - how do you quantify if you have "learned" ?

It's very subjective - how would you yourself measure if someone had learned those things ?
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
it is reflected through your results. Winning a level over a large sample is proof you have learned how to beat it.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
I agree with Vinyl that it shows in results. Indirectly (maybe directly, depending on how you look at it), even tilting shows up in results because of the stupid plays we make when in that mood.

Specifically and personally: tilting I think I have mastered; bets as bb vs cash, I'm getting there; advanced basics, still plenty to learn; BRM, I think I'm OK with that but time will tell; analyzing my own play, getting there too. That might be one of the hardest of all because there are so many opinions of the same hand, so you have to be pleased and honest with yourself and your own analysis, and IMHO, that will also show in your results.

As for a sample size, right now, I'm up 14.71 bb/100 for the last 12,000 hands, which is when I figure something clicked and my knowledge of poker combined with getting used to PT4 and the HUD got me to winning ways. (Miniscule sample size IMHO and not nearly enough.) However, for my total of over 40,000 hands I've played, I am just into the positive by 130 bbs.

My goal is to get to 100 K hands (still a small sample compared to others here) and have a bb/100 higher than 8 for all hands. That's when I will consider a move up to 5 NL permanent, but still to be governed by good BRM. Will I dabble before then? Yes, I will, but only for a session once in a while when I feel I can do it comfortably without affecting my BR for 2 NL.
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
OK, now we are getting somewhere.

So, until you post 100,000 hands at a winrate of 3-5 bb/100 you are not ready to move up to the next level.

I assume whatever level you start at you won't be winning straight away, so you will have to play more than 100,000 hands.

shall we say then, the rate should be over your LAST 100,000 hands.

How long would it take someone to play 100,000 - 200,000 hands at a particular level ? 6 max ? Full ring ?
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
I 4 table @ FR (don't play 6-Max) and usually get 250 - 300+ hands an hour.

So let's say 200K hands @ 250 / hr = 600 hours
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
So, until you post 100,000 hands at a winrate of 3-5 bb/100 you are not ready to move up to the next level.

100k will give you a good idea of your true win rate at a level but who said you have to play 100k hands at every level?? I think moving up should mainly be determined by your bankroll and whether you have enough to take shots at the next level. No point grinding out 100k hands at a level if you are able to roll yourself for the next in 10 or 20k hands. You might do fine at the next level too in which case staying at the previous level would've been a waste of time.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
OK, now we are getting somewhere.

So, until you post 100,000 hands at a winrate of 3-5 bb/100 you are not ready to move up to the next level.

I assume whatever level you start at you won't be winning straight away, so you will have to play more than 100,000 hands.

shall we say then, the rate should be over your LAST 100,000 hands.

How long would it take someone to play 100,000 - 200,000 hands at a particular level ? 6 max ? Full ring ?




^^^^ if u 2 table zoom you get like 500 hands an hour or so. So that means if you play 4 hours a day thats 2 K hands a day. If you do that every day,you get 60K hands a month.


Personally,i can manage to play 5K hands a day ,easy breezy. but then again i am losing atm so think cutting that down might be a good idea.

Quality not quantity.
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
Yes, but how do you quantify "doing fine ?

Are you suggesting a winrate of 3-5bb/100 over 10k hands is enough to qualify as beating the level ?
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
^^^^ if u 2 table zoom you get like 500 hands an hour or so. So that means if you play 4 hours a day thats 2 K hands a day. If you do that every day,you get 60K hands a month.


Personally,i can manage to play 5K hands a day ,easy breezy. but then again i am losing atm so think cutting that down might be a good idea.

Quality not quantity.

We are talking about someone learning the game at one level and moving up to the next. Can you really learn the game by 2 tabling Zoom and get a winrate of 3-5 bb/ hr and learn ? I haven't seen that suggested as a good strategy before. what about settling in to as table, reading players, using the HUD....
 
R

Rhinelander

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Total posts
68
Chips
0
Are you suggesting a winrate of 3-5bb/100 over 10k hands is enough to qualify as beating the level ?
Absolutely and definetly not. 10k hands are like a small ripple in the ocean. Better than nothing but still way to go. I had a 6k hand stretch last month with +10bb and a winrate of 6.4bb over 14k hands. Am I beating the level? Certainly not yet.

I 3-table 6max which comes down to about 200-250 hands/hour. Played about 60 hours last month --> 14k hands. Will most likely not be spending that much time at the tables in the coming months.

I would not learn playing poker with Zoom tables. Zoom is so fast that you just don't have the time to properly reflect every hand in detail which is part of the learning process. But that is just my oppinion.

I could easily roll myself for higher stakes but it is not about that for me. I want to properly learn and execute the game fundamentals. I know that I will most likely never make a decent hourly rate by playing poker compared to my rather well paying dayjob. Now... what is decent? E.g. someone sitting in Bulgaria or Romania will make more money than with an average 9-5 job by achieving an hourly winrate of $4 playing 5 hours per day. Different story where you and I live...

You don't have to play 100k hands before moving up. It all depends on your motives. If you are fine with redepositing as neccessary and have a well fed bank account you can also begin at 100NL+ and start out with being a total noob. It will be expensive but maybe thats what gives you the thrill and makes you happy plus you simply don't have to care for the money lost during the learning process. Other people race cars or pay loads of money for other hobbies.

If you want to be REALLY good you have to invest a LOT of time. Be ready to do that if your aim is to be able to call poker as one of your serious income sources.
 
Last edited:
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
I am not asking from a noob perspective - there are a couple of heated threads where peole are saying you must play 5NL before 10, 10 before 25 etc and that you must be able to crush/dominate consistently win at that level before you can move up.

OK, I get that, so let's have a common consensus - by what criteria does a player measure himself to determine if he (or she) if he is ready ?
 
R

Rhinelander

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Total posts
68
Chips
0
I am not asking from a noob perspective
I never said that YOU are a noob and also didn't say you are asking from that perspective.

OK, I get that, so let's have a common consensus - by what criteria does a player measure himself to determine if he (or she) if he is ready ?
I am not sure if you are not reading the posts properly or what else might be the issue here... sorry. No harm intended but you have received a few rather detailed answers and ask the same question again. Vinyl and others have already described what the "common concensus" is for many...
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
Yeah, I wasn't railing at you, if you took it that way then no offence meant.

I know there have been a number of responses, but they are all contradictory, there is by no means a common consensus. Following any one of the methods above goes against any other method. It's FAR from clear.

It can't be Zoom AND FR, it cant be 10k hands AND 100k hands....

And, I am not saying anyone is wrong.

Let's clear it up, by what terms do you decide if you are ready for the next level ? Simple ...
 
BluffMeAllIn

BluffMeAllIn

4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2009
Total posts
11,324
Chips
0
simple response would be your bankroll, if you are ready or not will truly be determined by how it goes at the new level and simply ensure you follow a good brm plan and drop back if the new level kicks ur butt, rebuild at the lower level while analyzing the play from the new level and fixing possible leaks. Once your br is ready for the new level then you try again, rinse and repeat for moving either up or down....simple
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
It's easy to say someone is ready to move up who is beating his current level for X rate over Y sample and who has enough BR. But IMO, there can be other considerations.

In my case, for example, I had been a winning low-buyin MTT player for at least a couple of years before I started playing cash more than just occasionally. Yes, they're different games, but I needed less than 20k hands at NL2 plus a couple of shots at 5NL to see that I had enough game to move up.

One thing I considered came from reviewing my decision-making compared to the opponents'. What I saw was that while I made quite a few sub-optimal decisions, I made far fewer than average.

Note that I'm not suggesting anyone do what I did. My point is that blanket guidelines for moving up don't fit everyone to the same degree.
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
Yeah, I wasn't railing at you, if you took it that way then no offence meant.

I know there have been a number of responses, but they are all contradictory, there is by no means a common consensus. Following any one of the methods above goes against any other method. It's FAR from clear.

It can't be Zoom AND FR, it cant be 10k hands AND 100k hands....

And, I am not saying anyone is wrong.

Let's clear it up, by what terms do you decide if you are ready for the next level ? Simple ...

You are getting different responses because there is no right answer, when to move up will be a personal choice. Some people may move up as their bankroll allows them to (and time spent at a level will vary from person to person depending on their BRM strategy), and others may want to wait until they feel they have a significant edge at their current level or they have won over X number of hands there.
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
You are getting different responses because there is no right answer, when to move up will be a personal choice. Some people may move up as their bankroll allows them to (and time spent at a level will vary from person to person depending on their BRM strategy), and others may want to wait until they feel they have a significant edge at their current level or they have won over X number of hands there.

Exactly my point.

Significant edge ? What is that ?

As you know, in another thread, I made my case for preferring to play 25NL, and everyone's response was that I should not do that until I am beating 5NL and 10NL, yet there is no definition on what beating 5NL and 10NL actually is.

Win rate ? What about downswings ?
No of hands ? how many hands must you play before you can stand free of being accused of just being a fish on heat ?
Bankroll ? What if you can afford a bankroll to start at 100 NL ?

I have been getting slammed for playing 25NL.

My good results at 25NL have been discounted as meaningless, so let's define what does mean something.

I am prepared to go back and meet the challenge of beating 5NL, but let's define what beating 5NL means.

Anyone ?
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
SNIP<<<< I am prepared to go back and meet the challenge of beating 5NL, but let's define what beating 5NL means.

Anyone ?

It's been said above that there is no exact answer, it's very individual specific.

I would suggest you go back over the suggestions we've presented and decide how they apply to you, and then do your own plan if you wish. Nobody can tell "YOU" what to do regarding the question, that's a decision you make after having gathered the information and executing the plan, kind of like a good poker hand where you have nuts or 2nd nuts, how do you get the most out of it.
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
WTF lol

Significant edge ? What is that ?

When you feel like your play is significantly better than your opponents.

No of hands ? how many hands must you play before you can stand free of being accused of just being a fish on heat ?
Bankroll ? What if you can afford a bankroll to start at 100 NL ?

Show a win rate over 50k hands and you are unlikely to be on a heater, show a win rate over 100k hands it's even less likely that you are on a heater.

A beginner starting at 100nl is pretty likely to lose thousands of dollars, possibly even tens of thousands, if that kind of money really is insignificant to them then why not, blow your wad

I have been getting slammed for playing 25NL.

My good results at 25NL have been discounted as meaningless, so let's define what does mean something.

I am prepared to go back and meet the challenge of beating 5NL, but let's define what beating 5NL means.

Anyone ?

You played less than 5k hands at 25nl, that is not enough to know if you are just on a heater but this has all been discussed already and Im bored of it.

Beat 5nl for 50k hands, there's a good challenge for you
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
OK, this is actually getting us somewhere now, a usable definition that people can measure themselves by. It would be nice to have something beginners and novices could use.

How about this as a starting point:

"In order to assess whether you are ready to consider moving to a higher level, you should concentrate on three areas: increasing your starting bankroll, playing an appreciable sample size of hands, and demonstrating knowledge of key concepts.

1. Bankroll

You should adhere to Ferguson rules, as follows:

* 2NL: start with $40, move up to 5NL at $100 NL
* 5NL: Start with $100, move up to 10 NL at $200
* 10 NL: Start with $200, move up to 25NL at $ 500

Only move up if conditions 2 and 3 are also met.

2. Sample Size

Play the minimum hands at the level you are on:
* no less than 50,000 hands (to account for downswings, variance, etc)
* the last 25,000 hands played must be at a win rate of no less than 3bb/100

Only move up if conditions 1 and 3 are also met.


3. Master key concepts.

At each level, demonstrate understanding of key concepts:

2NL:
* Hand Values
* Opening Ranges

5 NL:
* Positional Play
* Hand Reading

10NL:
* Bet Sizing
* Bluffing

25NL
* Advanced Hand Reading
* Representing

Only move on to the next level if you have mastered the key concepts plus conditions 1 and 3 are met.




OK, this is a starting definition, I hope you can feel free to improve it.

So, the aim of this is to give us all a starting point, and for new players ior people struggling, to give them something they can look at and help them quantify what they need to do to consider themselves ready for the next move.

We can also use it to nip disagreements in the bud - ie, until you have 50k hands, you can't claim anything about play on a level. (as has been pointed out to me and I readily accept).

Or, someone wanting to move up, let's discuss some of the concepts we agree you need to master on a level, post hands, discuss, and test if the concept really has been mastered.

I dunno, I just thought it might help take away some of the heat when people are struggling to find their place.
 
Last edited:
Top