How do you deal with obvious C-betters?

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DisRuptive1

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You've got a great hand but a terrible flop. You're pretty sure the other guy has a good hand too because he raised pre-flop. The board comes out and it's terrible for both of you but the other guy bets 100% of the pot. You're 90% sure that your hand is better than his but you're just not priced in to call in case he does have a pair on the board or a pocket pair.

What should I do? Just fold and wait for the good hands to come where I can call or risk calling?
 
flatcaller

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i don't see the problem. If you are 90% your hand is good raise. So you are wrong 1 out 10 times. Def good odds to make a huge profit
 
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BlueNowhere

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i don't see the problem. If you are 90% your hand is good raise. So you are wrong 1 out 10 times. Def good odds to make a huge profit

This. You print money 90% of the time if that's the case.
 
bgomez89

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i don't see the problem. If you are 90% your hand is good raise. So you are wrong 1 out 10 times. Def good odds to make a huge profit

Even if he never calls a raise with worse?

IMO floating is fun against the right people and raising is fine to bluff with sometimes but is way cooler when we have a good hand and he can call with worse.
 
JusSumguy

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Barring reads, easy fold.


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flatcaller

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Even if he never calls a raise with worse?

IMO floating is fun against the right people and raising is fine to bluff with sometimes but is way cooler when we have a good hand and he can call with worse.

your 90% sure you have the best hand. raise prob works best when you know you are a head unless you want to hope your pair will hold up till river
 
flatcaller

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This. You print money 90% of the time if that's the case.

Does this imply you loose 90% of pots when you feel you are 90% the favorite? I don't follow your response entirely...:confused:
 
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BlueNowhere

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Does this imply you lose 90% of pots when you feel you are 90% the favorite? I don't follow your response entirely...:confused:

OP said he is 90% sure he has the best hand. I quoted you seeing I don't see what the problem is, if you are good 90% of the time you don't want to fold. In fact shoving (presuming stack sizes are set up right) is better than folding.

I don't understand the thread tbh.
 
flatcaller

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OP said he is 90% sure he has the best hand. I quoted you seeing I don't see what the problem is, if you are good 90% of the time you don't want to fold. In fact shoving (presuming stack sizes are set up right) is better than folding.

I don't understand the thread tbh.

kk i follow you now. :D

yeah i agree don't understand thread fully, i think 90% should maybe say 50% idk lol
 
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doomasiggy

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OP said he is 90% sure he has the best hand. I quoted you seeing I don't see what the problem is, if you are good 90% of the time you don't want to fold. In fact shoving (presuming stack sizes are set up right) is better than folding.

I don't understand the thread tbh.

I think what he's saying is how to deal with people that c-bet waaay too much, like, 80-90% of flops. In which case, isn't the right solution to raise their c-bets on dry boards as a steal instead of floating the flop? If you float the flop, you give them a 15% chance to hit their pair on the turn. Better to raise surely and take it down when they fold their missed flop.
 
Pascal-lf

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your 90% sure you have the best hand. raise prob works best when you know you are a head unless you want to hope your pair will hold up till river

raising when he never calls with worse is just terrible unless you're bluffing (he folds better hands a high enough % of the time). for example, if he had 1 over on the flop he has ~12% chance to hit on the river (double that for two overs). so if he barrels turn and river 100% of the time (obviously never going to happen 100% of the time but we'll use it as an example), calling flop, turn and river is going to be significantly more profitable than raising flop and making him fold his two overs.
 
jaxpaboo

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Not sure if I like to play back without knowing for a fact I have a better hand. If he's overbetting the flop with pot size bet, I'd rather wait until I actually have a good hand and punish him with a check raise everytime.

Now against a 1/2 pot flop better, I'll go ahead and throw in a check raise with any two overcards, with semi-bluff hands, and also when ever a scary board comes. 3 to straight, 3 to flush, or any paired flop.
 
Pascal-lf

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the point is if he never calls worse you are not achieving anything by raising cbettors on flops because you lose the chance to win a bigger pot but you will always lose bigger pots. you don't have to be scared of him hitting draws when he has 20-30% equity over 2 streets, calling will let you win bigger pots when he bluffs or when you value bet because you keep the weaker parts of his range in and allow him to bluff catch
 
jolubman

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I would wait it out. If you call the raise, there's still other streets. Normally, I either wait these guys out, raise them back the size of their bet, and keep checking to them.
 
TrueOC

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If you know 90% your opponent is cbetting and 90% that you are good, Youj 100% raise, you do so when you think he is cbetting and you are good, ths will make you table image more aggressie and people will lay more pots down to you, which is always a plus! :) good luck!
 
flatcaller

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the point is if he never calls worse you are not achieving anything by raising cbettors on flops because you lose the chance to win a bigger pot but you will always lose bigger pots. you don't have to be scared of him hitting draws when he has 20-30% equity over 2 streets, calling will let you win bigger pots when he bluffs or when you value bet because you keep the

and you create the chance to loose an even bigger pot when you are 90% sure you are ahead on the flop with pair. This is why people hate AA cause they try to play it all fancy. You have a pair, not a straight, trips, boat etc. why would u ever try to slow play a pair? that has suck out written all over it. You think you have best hand, take down the pot why you think that. even if you have a 12% chance of gettting sucked out on turn there is more like a +30% chance a scare card comes on turn. I say take down the pot while you know your in front make life easy and don't rely on top pair to hold up till river.
 
LuckyChippy

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Impossible question to answer. It's vague, no reads or stats.
 
bgomez89

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and you create the chance to loose an even bigger pot when you are 90% sure you are ahead on the flop with pair. This is why people hate AA cause they try to play it all fancy. You have a pair, not a straight, trips, boat etc. why would u ever try to slow play a pair? that has suck out written all over it. You think you have best hand, take down the pot why you think that. even if you have a 12% chance of gettting sucked out on turn there is more like a +30% chance a scare card comes on turn. I say take down the pot while you know your in front make life easy and don't rely on top pair to hold up till river.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. You shouldn't raise your value hands if you know he won't call you with worse(this may not apply all the time). What will happen is you'll get him to fold but you'll only will a small pot and when he calls, you're either crushed or he'll raise you and you're still crushed. Now, if you know you he will call you with worse THEN you should raise.
 
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baudib1

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I really despise the concept of "what worse calls" because poker players can find really creative ways to put money into a pot badly.

For sure we should have a huge flatting range of value hands, nut hands, draws and some pure floats but surely we should have a polarized raising range as well. Just because he may only have 6 outs to win doesn't mean he can't keep firing/representing other overs and if we can't take 3 barrels generating fold equity is a good thing.
 
bgomez89

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The point is just because we think we have the best hand doesn't necessarily mean we should raise
 
flatcaller

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I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. You shouldn't raise your value hands if you know he won't call you with worse(this may not apply all the time). What will happen is you'll get him to fold but you'll only will a small pot and when he calls, you're either crushed or he'll raise you and you're still crushed. Now, if you know you he will call you with worse THEN you should raise.

so when do u raise? when you have the nuts and you know you opponent has the second nuts? You know you are beeting your opponet with a PAIR (not the nuts) and you feel this is best to call him down? do u get "bad beats" alot?

ex. hc TT flop 42J opponet bets, you call. turn card Q. does not matter if your opponent hits Q or not are you still calling a large bet with TT confidently? I guess at this point your best option is to hope he checks and prey river is a blank...

same scenario you know this guy and you are 90% sure he did not hit jack and he has AK type hand. he bets you raise he folds, you win. no pressure easy victory let everyone else make tough decision for there chips. no suck outs and no guessing and most of all no calling someone down for your chip life.
 
duggs

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so when do u raise? when you have the nuts and you know you opponent has the second nuts? You know you are beeting your opponet with a PAIR (not the nuts) and you feel this is best to call him down? do u get "bad beats" alot?

ex. hc TT flop 42J opponet bets, you call. turn card Q. does not matter if your opponent hits Q or not are you still calling a large bet with TT confidently? I guess at this point your best option is to hope he checks and prey river is a blank...

same scenario you know this guy and you are 90% sure he did not hit jack and he has AK type hand. he bets you raise he folds, you win. no pressure easy victory let everyone else make tough decision for there chips. no suck outs and no guessing and most of all no calling someone down for your chip life.

i think the point is that if you can get folds from his range by raising, shouldnt you be doing this with air?

eg, same board, same opponent range, its better to raise 89/78 hand with little equity and call the times you have good equity and he will continue with a weaker range
 
bgomez89

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so when do u raise? when you have the nuts and you know you opponent has the second nuts? You know you are beeting your opponet with a PAIR (not the nuts) and you feel this is best to call him down? do u get "bad beats" alot?
Like i've been saying over and over, I'll raise when I can put him on a calling range that includes worse hands than mine.
same scenario you know this guy and you are 90% sure he did not hit jack and he has AK type hand. he bets you raise he folds, you win. no pressure easy victory let everyone else make tough decision for there chips. no suck outs and no guessing and most of all no calling someone down for your chip life.
I'm not saying it isn't profitable, but I don't think it's the MOST profitable.

i think the point is that if you can get folds from his range by raising, shouldnt you be doing this with air?

eg, same board, same opponent range, its better to raise 89/78 hand with little equity and call the times you have good equity and he will continue with a weaker range
No the point is raise when he can call with worse. Don't raise when he never calls with worse because then we're just turning our value hand into a bluff

edit- No I did not take more "bad beats" than normal
 
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duggs

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how exactly is 89 on a J42 board a value hand?
 
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