How to defend yourself from aggressive players?

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IsaPalacios

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I'm not a great poker player first and foremost, but I am having a huge problem.

I play microstakes .02/.05 cent games just to practice at the most novice level possible. I was getting pretty good at this level.

I would read off how loose or tight players are for hand range, I play position, I only Cbet the players who I seen fold on the flop frequently etc. The basics.

So naturally I decided I wanted to play .05/.10 cent games.
AND what a jump in skill level. I can't imagine what higher stakes are like.

I don't know what to do. It's like I might as well go all in with KQ anytime I get raised because of how aggressive these guys are.

Say I'm under the gun and I raise with KQ suited. It seems like anytime I do that, someones gonna re-pop me. Okay I call, because it feels pretty standard to get reraised.

Then the flop comes. 2-7-9, it feels like I have to continuation bet because if I don't he will. And a lot of these guys are c-betting pot sized bets.

SO I bet and given a board like that and me raising out of position preflop, he knows I probably didn't hit so he's gonna 3 bet me.

Most of the time if I have an ACE here I'm gonna call because with a board like that I know he can't have squat either right?

What I'm asking, it at these levels when do you give up a hand, and still get to be profitable?

Because if I'm getting bluffed out of every other flop where I don't connect, then it feels like I'm in trouble.
And most of the time I'm right and they ride it with me all the way down to the river and they catch a 10 or something.

It makes me sick.
 
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starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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It sounds like you are still getting to grips with a lot of the basics needed to beat, or even be competitive at 10nl, I will keep this pretty short.


1. Dont go all in with KQ, they will never call with worse.

2. Spend some time observing 10nl for a while before thinking about playing, make some good notes on the regs and try to get a feel for the dynamic.

3. If you dont know why you are cbetting/ when to cbet/ when not to cbet etc etc you need to read up or watch videos on c betting.

4. If you dont know about c-betting, dont move up yet.

5. If you are not a long term winner at 5nl, dont move up yet. My idea would be at least 4 months of good winning poker.


All the best.
 
youregoodmate

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You cant c-bet if you weren't the last aggressor preflop.

If you are donking (leading out when you weren't the aggressor preflop) the flop and know that he won't put you on a made hand, then why are you betting??

I play at higher than 10nl and it gets more aggro than that. The trick is how to use it to your advantage. You have to start 3 betting and 4 betting lighter.

Now that doesn't mean repop the KQ UTG when you get 3 bet because they are likely doing that with strong hand. That means blind on blind and BTN vs blinds.

With regards to calling 3 bets. Try to avoid doing it out of position. My general stance is 4 bet or fold until you are a strong enough player to be able to reduce the positional disadvantage post flop. Even at 10nl a 4 bet is usually very strong, mostly QQ+ and AK from regs. Use that to your advantage.

Do you have a HUD? If not, get one. They are incredibly valuable for decisions on 3 bettors.
 
PapaC

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When I first made a $50 deposit on Full Flush I started at 5nl and done real well. Then like you I wanted to move up to 10nl and it was another world. I could not figure out what to call or bet with to be a winner. Seemed like my cards never came to the board except my lower hole card. So with the higher cards on the board I was forced to fold. But one thing I learned was not to raise with hands like KQ and then if there is a raise, it don't cost me so much to call if I want to. Also I learned that most players at 10nl will not want to run the money off with their good hands. At least that's how the players are at FF and I'm able to see a lot of flops for very little. Now I play on several sites and the players at each one play differently. Carbon is the hardest site I ever played ring games at. But at FF I finally go used to playing 10nl and that it what I play now. However not to long ago I went to 25nl and was quickly forced to go back down because my BR suffered bad. All I can really say even after all this, is to learn from your mistakes and keep a cool head. Don't go on tilt when you lose. That has to be the best thing I have learned from other players here.
 
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IsaPalacios

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It sounds like you are still getting to grips with a lot of the basics needed to beat, or even be competitive at 10nl, I will keep this pretty short.


1. Dont go all in with KQ, they will never call with worse.

2. Spend some time observing 10nl for a while before thinking about playing, make some good notes on the regs and try to get a feel for the dynamic.

3. If you dont know why you are cbetting/ when to cbet/ when not to cbet etc etc you need to read up or watch videos on c betting.

4. If you dont know about c-betting, dont move up yet.

5. If you are not a long term winner at 5nl, dont move up yet. My idea would be at least 4 months of good winning poker.


All the best.
You would definitely be correct on your first statement sir.

1. I wouldn't really go all in with KQ, I'm just saying it feels like it almost feels like that through getting bombarded with bets.

2. After I realized I wasn't gonna turn a profit last night I sat there and watched for a couple hours.

3. Do you have any suggestions as to where to get these lessons? I simply C-bet if I've noticed my opponent will fold to a cbet,

4. Same as 3.

5. And that sounds like a good idea, my main concern is really learning poker. I have a casino nearby and I'd love to be able to crush the 1-2 dollar live games.
From my experience I would say they're in the same range as 5nl and 10nl as far as skill goes. So I kinda jump around between the 2.
 
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IsaPalacios

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You cant c-bet if you weren't the last aggressor preflop.

If you are donking (leading out when you weren't the aggressor preflop) the flop and know that he won't put you on a made hand, then why are you betting??

I play at higher than 10nl and it gets more aggro than that. The trick is how to use it to your advantage. You have to start 3 betting and 4 betting lighter.

Now that doesn't mean repop the KQ UTG when you get 3 bet because they are likely doing that with strong hand. That means blind on blind and BTN vs blinds.

With regards to calling 3 bets. Try to avoid doing it out of position. My general stance is 4 bet or fold until you are a strong enough player to be able to reduce the positional disadvantage post flop. Even at 10nl a 4 bet is usually very strong, mostly QQ+ and AK from regs. Use that to your advantage.

Do you have a HUD? If not, get one. They are incredibly valuable for decisions on 3 bettors.

In my mind I think it's okay to lead out into an opponent who won't put me on a made hand when I don't think he has one either for pot control. I'll bet 1/3 the pot and usually just get called, rather than getting hit with pot sized bets every C-bet and calling because I don't think my opponent has a better hand.

I looked into HUD's, but i play on Bovada. And ultimately I'm looking to be a good live player so I don't know that a HUD would do me any good. Plus I don't have the extra $100, and I do have David Sklansky's "Theory of Poker" book, so I got that going for me. :)
 
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IsaPalacios

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When I first made a $50 deposit on Full Flush I started at 5nl and done real well. Then like you I wanted to move up to 10nl and it was another world. I could not figure out what to call or bet with to be a winner. Seemed like my cards never came to the board except my lower hole card. So with the higher cards on the board I was forced to fold. But one thing I learned was not to raise with hands like KQ and then if there is a raise, it don't cost me so much to call if I want to. Also I learned that most players at 10nl will not want to run the money off with their good hands. At least that's how the players are at FF and I'm able to see a lot of flops for very little. Now I play on several sites and the players at each one play differently. Carbon is the hardest site I ever played ring games at. But at FF I finally go used to playing 10nl and that it what I play now. However not to long ago I went to 25nl and was quickly forced to go back down because my BR suffered bad. All I can really say even after all this, is to learn from your mistakes and keep a cool head. Don't go on tilt when you lose. That has to be the best thing I have learned from other players here.

Well I really appreciate the advice, I play on Bovada and thought about switching to carbon. Maybe I will, if I play harder competition at lower stakes then I can learn faster and lose less money.
 
youregoodmate

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In my mind I think it's okay to lead out into an opponent who won't put me on a made hand when I don't think he has one either for pot control. I'll bet 1/3 the pot and usually just get called, rather than getting hit with pot sized bets every C-bet and calling because I don't think my opponent has a better hand.

I looked into HUD's, but i play on Bovada. And ultimately I'm looking to be a good live player so I don't know that a HUD would do me any good. Plus I don't have the extra $100, and I do have David Sklansky's "Theory of Poker" book, so I got that going for me. :)

Betting a third pot to prevent calling a larger bet is bad. It looks weak and against any thinking player they would exploit it. I would normally raise most of my range against that bet just because it looks so weak.

We bet for two (occasionally 3 reasons).

To get a worse hand to call.
To get a better hand to fold.
(Or to protect the value of our hand, although don't use this reason often while you are learning).

If you cant claim one of those reasons then dont bet.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Its good that you are observing when to cbet based on the villains, good work. But also c-betting depending on the board is important knowledge too. Use a popular video sharing website and search c-betting. You will find a lot of info.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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We bet for two (occasionally 3 reasons).

To get a worse hand to call.
To get a better hand to fold.
(Or to protect the value of our hand, although don't use this reason often while you are learning).

If you cant claim one of those reasons then dont bet.

Spot on.
 
rancidcarp

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always been told the defense is a good offense. and first punch wins 99% of the fights.sometimes you just have to come over the top of these guys. see what their range is. im only talking about the ones who are just playing to make you fold. note those guys. it does drive one crazy to feel like the ball in a pinball machine.
 
A2345Razz

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Honestly, you don't sound ready for 10NL, at least not the ones on domestic US site, bc shockingly there are some really good players at that levels imho.

Also, stop being worried about "losing" pots to "worse" hands. Position is part of the value of your hand, and just because the guy is using his position and perhaps not absolute hand value, it doesn't matter. Generally, you don't want to be playing a really big pot OOP with KQo anyway...just let it go and stay patient. If you feel like someone is just hammering you then call and raise most CB's on good boards for your range (Ace hi's /KQXs Q10Xs...etc.).
 
boris 3ca

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one rule.stay cold and w8 donk to come into your game:cool:
 
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What type of player is the aggressive one.

To determine how to play against an aggressive player, you need to first determine:
- is he aggressive towards just you, or towards the entire table.
- How many hands is he playing. This will tell if he is a tight aggressive (meaning he is going to only play good hands), or loose aggressive (which will mean he will aggressively play any hands, hoping to get his opponent to fold).
- When is he aggressive. Many players on aggressive when they have position.

If the aggressive player(s) seem to be targetting you specifically, they have probably marked you as someone who will easily fold. In this situation, continue to fold until you get a decent hand. Then, check/call their bets to you. This will probably get them to bet higher on turn and river, hoping to get you to fold, and increasing your profit when you make it to showdown.

The situation is similar when you are against a tight aggressive player who is aggressive with everyone at the table. This player is playing very good pocket cards and hands. It takes a little longer, but you must wait for a very good hand (more than just top pair, good kicker). He will also generally escallate his betting, hoping to get paid out. Again, it is usually good to let him bet, rather than raising early and scaring him into being careful about what he's doing. On the river, if you still think you have best hand (or preferably are sitting with the nuts), you can raise huge, hoping that he thinks you are trying to bluff him off the pot.

Both styles, require lots of patience to wait for a good/great hand and lots of folding of marginal hands. This is why many on this thread have recommended NOT playing KQ, especially from early position. KQ is not a strong hand. What do you do with a board K- J - 2 (with possible flush and straight draws). SOmeone with KK AA or AK is going to be betting big, as is someone who has made trips; and you will have trouble not believing your hand is best.
 
ScooperNova

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My advice for you is to play somewhere with a screen name if you want to play tight. Then, you can show you are capable of making plays while remaining fairly tight. If you show you have a bevy of weapons in your betting arsenal, you will not be pushed around as much by good aggressive players. Good luck with those bad aggressive players. Pick a good spot and hope they don't suckout like the rest of us!

If you like to play anonymous, just go all in preflop once in a while with garbage and type "weeeeeee" in the chatbox and show 7-2os. Lol. Jk.

That's just the opinion of an average, low-stakes player. I would suggest going to to ACR and playing some .02 PLO. I won't elaborate, but you may learn a couple of things there about aggression and position, regardless of whether you prefer to play a tight or aggressive style yourself. You can buy in for .80 or even .40 at the NLO table. Yes, No Limit Omaha and it's fun. I would say the PLO is a better experience though because NL becomes a preflop all in fest.
 
ScooperNova

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My advice for you is to play somewhere with a screen name if you want to play tight. Then, you can show you are capable of making plays while remaining fairly tight. If you show you have a bevy of weapons in your betting arsenal, you will not be pushed around as much by good aggressive players. Good luck with those bad aggressive players. Pick a good spot and hope they don't suckout like the rest of us!

If you like to play anonymous, just go all in preflop once in a while with garbage and type "weeeeeee" in the chatbox and show 7-2os. Lol. Jk.

That's just the opinion of an average, low-stakes player. I would suggest going to to ACR and playing some .02 PLO. I won't elaborate, but you may learn a couple of things there about aggression and position, regardless of whether you prefer to play a tight or aggressive style yourself. You can buy in for .80 or even .40 at the NLO table. Yes, No Limit Omaha and it's fun. I would say the PLO is a better experience though because NL becomes a preflop all in fest.
 
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Overall, what is an average winning players
(aggression facctor??) #Bet/Raise | #Call

As well as #Bet/Raise/Call | #fold
(3:1?)
 
TempoShaman

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honestly i notice a variation throughout all sites
 
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If you can't beat them (which you can't) join them, the only way to win at poker is to be aggressive and smart. Suggest you take a step down in stakes if you're struggling with 10NL, don't worry you'll be crushing it in no time. ;)
 
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At 10nl you have to be aware of positional dynamics, expect to get 3-bet a lot by the small blind against a steal and be aware that his range is not only AK and QQ+ and act accordingly, this can mean either call with a wider range or you can even try a 4-bet bluff! You need to be aware of what your opponents range is and be aware of what your opponent thinks your range is and mentally estimate what your expected equity is against his range.

Most importantly you need to be selectively aggressive. If you are very passive/weak good opponents will pick up on this and destroy you. Plan ahead! If your c-bet gets called think if you can possibly get your opponent off his hand with a second barrel if there are scare cards on the turn of if your hand has picked up extra equity (backdoor flush/straights). Look for tendencies in your opponents: some players are very loose and play lots of hands and some players play barely any, some players are overly aggressive and some are ridiculously passive. Once, you have gained the information you have to learn how to use it, for example, if you see a passive player become aggressive be weary, he probably has a monster.

Edit: On this particular hand, you were UTG and you got 3bet which means your opponents range is likely very strong, calling with KQ OOP against this range is pretty disastrous in my opinion, as played you should probably just check/fold the flop. For clarification a c-bet is a bet made you were the last aggressor in the hand; you declare you have the best hand by raising and then with that information you make a bet on the flop. You didn't c-bet the flop because you called his raise preflop, what you have just described is what is called a "donk bet" and should be avoided in most situations, especially like this where K high is most likely the worst hand here.
 
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TheGodson

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10cent/5cent was much different than 6cent/3cent and 2cent/1cent when I first joined the games. The players do not fold as much and at times you'll run into games with overly aggressive players. The way to win is to tighten up and only play good hands.

Opening up UTG with KQo isn't really a big problem, but calling a 3-bet is. I would suggest opening tighter than this. Something like 44+, AJs+, AQo+ UTG which is 7.69% of hands. If you get 3-bet fold. If you have KK+ you can 4-bet which is .90% of hands.

Wait a minute, other people are printing money off of you, because you keep folding to their 3-bets right? Well yes, but when you 4-bet they won't have the discipline to fold and you will well make up for all those folds when they flat your 4-bet with QJs and call off all their money on KJ4r flop.

You don't ever need to 4-bet bluff to be a winner at 10nl. There are few opportunities where it is good, but you can pass these up and still be a winner.


Also, don't convince yourself that you are entitled to the pot just because you had a stronger hand preflop. AK use to be a losing hand for me, because I always c-bet the flop with it and would get stubborn and make losing bluffs with it when it missed. Realize this, "I had a better range than my opponent preflop, but these cards on the flop have made my hand worse than his so I am just going to check/fold, because his range hits it stronger and he doesn't fold enough."

Sometimes you can fire at flops with air, but you need to be way more fold happy than calling with K high. If you face overly aggressive opponents that don't stop betting, catch a hand and then put up a fight. Sometimes you can just call them all the way down and you can watch them empty their wallet on you. Try not bluffing for awhile and see where that takes you. Most won't even catch on. Yes, the internet says c-bet with 70%+ of hands in heads up pots, which is true for the most part. But if you are against a player that won't fold and will always re-raise you, stop doing it. Only do it with a good hand and don't be afraid of calling him down. K high is often too weak though. You need something stronger.

It may feel like your opponents are being really aggressive, but sometimes this is actually your imagination. You should open up a word document and count the number of times your opponents re-raise, call, and fold to your c-bets. You'll be surprised how much they actually fold at times. You are probably losing most of your money by fighting back when you don't need to.

You donk bet the flop in your example, not c-bet. There is a difference since you were not the aggressor preflop.
 
Sil3ntness

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Is the OP still even here? I'd say +1 for joining Carbon. Join Carbon there are a lot of good players even at the 4 NL level IMO. A lot of the regulars at 4 NL have been playing there forever it seems they don't want to leave (the profit must be good LOL)

---

Also Carbon Poker has a free poker odds Calculator so it comes with pot odds, win odds, all your outs, EV calculation, shows you and your opponents' aggression factor, 3 bet, steal to fold, Went to showdown stats, and etc.

Seriously I'm surprised Carbon offered it for free to its members. I would buy PT4 or HM2, but Carbon's calculator has been pretty helpful for me. Also doesn't playing against anonymous people make it harder to take notes on them? I'd rather be able to have a name to go with the player on a daily basis than "Player 1 & 2" LOL.
 
ScooperNova

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Seems like you are getting some great advice OP. Good luck!
 
the_wonk

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think about how the aggressive player may be setting himself up to be exploited, and it will vary depending on his specific tendencies.

e.g., if aggro is opening 40% of hands and continuation betting on 100% of flops, how much can you widen your checkraising range on the flop?

or, if aggro player is raising turns wide in position, but checking most rivers, maybe you can start semibluff jamming over his turn bets? or alternatively, donking rivers.
 
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