How deep should we not shove KK?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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This question obviously assumes that we are playing against a good solid player who also takes us as a good solid player. When I become a huge stack at a table and there is one other player with a massive stack I dread a KK vs AA scenario.

I was watching poker after dark and Phil Ivey decided to not 5 bet KK to Patrick's 4 bet with AA. When asked why he only called he said that the stacks were too deep as both Patrick and him had bought for 500k. He said that if he had 200k he would have shoved.

The flop came QJT and was a major action killer. In the end Ivey made a straight and bet the river which Patrick called.

I was watching a tutorial video from Daniel Negranu and he said that one should never feel bad about losing their entire stack pre flop with KK. It is generally true yes but we got to have a limit isn't it?

So how deep would you say the stacks should be before we should get a bit cautious with KK? I am not talking about folding but playing defensively. And I would say we should always be 4 betting KK but if we are facing a 4/5 bet with really deep stacks then we got to slow down a bit.

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Wardy88

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I think if we are at like 250bb - 300bb it makes the decision hard. I feel that at some point our opponent will flat us with QQ or AK - They probably flat a 5 bet from us and only 6 bet AA for example. But the issue is in that example if villain does 6 bet us, shouldn't we be folding? otherwise if we want to flat their 6 bet we are saying that they could be doing it with QQ, plus we are then hoping if the flop comes low rags that they will play QQ differently to AA or KK so we can get away from it, if not we should be stacking. It becomes confusing.

I've never folded KK pre yet but, I don't think I've been that deep with another reg and had this situation yet so I'm not sure what I would do. If I got 6 bet to like 90bb OOP and we are 300bb deep and villain was a 18/11 I might have to fold it.
 
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GWU73

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Honestly, when I get about 150-200bb, I start flatting 3 or 4 bets with KK. I may stack off on the flop, but when stacks get that deep most people are not looking to get it in with AK, or QQ. All getting it in accomplishes is driving out weaker hands and making the guy with AA happy.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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Aren't the odds of 2 players being dealt AA and KK higher than being dealt AK and KK?

If a player is only 4 betting AA, KK and AK then I believe 5 betting KK is -EV no?

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Wardy88

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If we have KK then there are 8 combos of AK and 6 combos of AA left in the deck. Combinatorially Villain will have AK more often than AA.

Against a range of KK, AA and AK we are have about 50% equity if we have KK. So the question becomes does Villain flat our 5 bet with that whole range or do we discount some combos of AK? Also does Villain shove that whole range and then whether we call depends on the pot odds.
 
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love that omaha

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75 big blinds - if you feel you have an advantage on most of the players at the table. I actually have worse luck with KK than any other hand so maybe im prejudiced - my 3 worst beats come in the biggest live tourneys Ive played KK flopped sets after being all in pre - and lost to AJ runner runner flush both times - 1st pl was over 5k each time and I ended up in 4th both times 3rd time was live cash I just won a 700 pot with AQ hearts on A 10 5 flop two hearts got all in vs AK turn K river J I win - as I am trying to rack up I get dealt KK in bb - no one raises - I ck intending to chk fold or play a small pot - flop K 10 10 im up against pocket 10's flop is ckd all the way around 4 players turn is chkd river I bet out 20 he raises to 40 I make it 100 - he only calls lol obv I am supposed to lose my whole stack - the whole table interrogates him - he claims he only looked at one card - then that he thought I was all in for 100. To this day no one has gotten an explanation from him that makes sense - he is a pretty good friend of mine but the hand keeps me up some nights - the cooler and just the weirdest hand I ever played or saw - he should have won 1400 dollar pot and only won like 220
 
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GabrielRiley

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Honestly, when I get about 150-200bb, I start flatting 3 or 4 bets with KK. I may stack off on the flop, but when stacks get that deep most people are not looking to get it in with AK, or QQ. All getting it in accomplishes is driving out weaker hands and making the guy with AA happy.

I to do the same thing, I never win any bet never have the proper techniques to play.
 
Slawa1986

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This is my least favorite combination KK!!! Very often I started to lose your entire stack!
 
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1blanqueanu1

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kk pre flop a hand that is almost never considered pulling. But if the size of the stacks are deep and there is a lot of action is complicated I guess. Logico 100 bb going to go in depth with kk pre flop, but if you got 400 bb such as the thing is more complex I guess.
Very interesting you mention ivey hand, that they are good players.
 
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gqr31ff

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KK good hand but do not forget the fact that many go into the game with an ace, and he appears frequently on hand it is necessary to look at the circumstances
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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KK good hand but do not forget the fact that many go into the game with an ace, and he appears frequently on hand it is necessary to look at the circumstances

I have no issues putting 300 BB in with KK vs an Ax hand. What my issue is putting 300 BB in with the worse hand.

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KALUGAJ

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Preflop good combination, but we have to wait 5 more cards
 
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CactusCat

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I saw the nightmare scenario happen literally a few hours ago - two players who had stayed out of each other's way on $2NL and built their stacks up to $13.00 and $14.00, seven buy-ins, very unusual to see one player up that much, much less two.

It ended up all in.

I like what GWU73 said. I've only gotten stacked with KK by AA at 100 bb and lower once (running good I guess). I've gotten away from it post flop once on a QJx board where I was only beating 1010s, and the specific player was likely to fold AK or flat it, and definitely not c-betting full pot, and only calls a raise with AQ. I neaaarly folded preflop.

Another time, I limped with KK, called a minraise from a shortstack in the bb, and folded to two all ins on a dry flop. The shortstack had AA and someone had AQ and flopped top pair. Lost about 6c that hand. In all hands but one, I was able to see the AA when someone else went to showdown and learn that I made the right decision.

Sometimes you just have a sixth sense when know you've been set up. It's like not paying someone off at the river - I deny the site the pleasure of falling for the trap. It's just evil for the site to do that, endangering all the work you've put into that session.

It works the other way too. I see someone open limp in late position, and I know right off the bat he has JJ or QQ. I raise 10x with AA, he calls. Low flop, I don't even bother building the pot, I just open shove all in, he calls with the overpair, and I take his stack.

In fact, I've been the benefactor of having AA against KK all in preflop more than the reverse. I think the times when I've been on the receiving end, I've been able to limit the damage. I've railbirded the $1000NL 6-Max game and was impressed to see someone NOT stack off with KK against AA, he check-called someone down. Still cost him $800 or something. You're pretty much obliged to give up a big chunk of your stack no matter what.
 
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Staneff

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You can shove with cowboys not only when you are short. You can shove even when you are chip leader :D especially when you are 4x 2nd in chips in 1k+ players tourney.

For cash games.. idk. Maybe every time you have KK you should play them slow. Setting traps is more profitable and safe than shoving with not the best hand pre-flop. On the flop with an ace on it shoving is not a good idea. It's different in every situation you are gonna get these kings :D.
 
mendiolacubicle

mendiolacubicle

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I only shove Kings between 40bb to 50bb, when postflop comes having these pair against aces on an open board gives both the chance to slow down and perhaps save a decent amount of chips from losing. Kings are strong but i only shove them when I'm short-stack. :)
 
DaPirate

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I lose more with KK than I do with AK.. not sure its ever a good time to shove KK even short stacked. Just seems if you have KK early position and 4x raise, someone comes over the top all in and on some sites it seems to be AA majority of the time.
 
A2345Razz

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150BB+ Is probably a decent guideline, but it is obviously player dependent.

You MUST stack off pre with it with just 100BB; I have had so many situations live where I thought I was up against the nuts only to see someone spazzing out with QQ/AK/JJ or even 1010 in spots where you would think tight players just couldn't be putting 100BB in.....just too much equity we're giving up here.

What is your definition of a good SOLID player?
 
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