How to beat small stakes nl live

Fieldsy

Fieldsy

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I read this post somewhere and I thought it was very interesting. Let me know what you all think about this strategy. What is good, what is bad about it?

"This forum has given me lots of help over the years, both with poker and life. So I'll try to give back by outlining how to crush live 1-2 and 2-5 holdem games.

I've been playing in these games since they got popular in about 2004. I played almost every day in 2004-2005, but have since gotten old and boring and only play 3-4 times a year. If you're like me, and you're on this site so you probably are, you started off in NL thinking that a standard TAG style was the way to get the money. And while you will make money playing this style, you won't crush the game. Even the idiots in these games will peg you as a tight player, and you won't get paid off enough. So you'll only make big scores by coolering people or having a total maniac/idiot sit down.

The way to crush these games is through the relentless use of position and aggression. Think about when you see people with huge stacks in these games - the 6+ buy-in stacks. Are they sitting there set-mining? No. They are playing lots of pots, and they are playing very aggressively. When you confuse opponents at this level, and they are very easy to confuse, they will make HUGE mistakes against you. This is how you start killing the game.

The Golden Rule: Play as many pots as possible in position. Bunch of limpers to you on the button with Q8s? Raise. J10 off? Raise. Any pocket pair, raise. Make the pot bigger because you're going to make way, way better decisions then your opponents and the positional advantage is huge. And sooner or later, and probably sooner, you're going to show down one of your awful hands and you will be labeled a maniac by the clowns who don't even know what position is let alone how to account for it.

Now of course you aren't really a maniac at all. In most cases, raise in late position and bet any flop, but shut down if called. Take free cards a bunch. Your opponents will be really confused by your play. They won't think "that guy raises all the time, I'm going to play back at him.' They'll think "that guy is always raising, he could have anything, I'm going to check to him." Low limit players are already way too passive, and by confusing them you make them even more so, which is great for you.

As an aside, every once in a while these guys will do something incredibly retarded because they are sick of you raising all the time. So like you'll raise KQ in late position, the flop will be QQ4, you make a continuation bet and some donk decides to check raise you all in because no way can you have the queen. See they will see you winning tons of pots without a showdown and decide to eventually do something about it, but they suck at poker and don't understand position, so they'll just end up making huge mistakes. They'll say things like "figures, the ONE TIME HE ACTUALLY HAD SOMETHING!" Just smile, shrug, and stack their chips.

Now, since these guys are awful, you want to play pots with them, especially if you are at all deep. The average low limit player is horrible at playing deep and makes no adjustments. So if a donk raises in early position and you're deep, call with your 84s in late position. When you make 2 pair or a straight he will call off his whole stack with his aces - remember, you are the maniac who can have anything. This is why you shut down on the flop in most cases when you are the aggressor: once they make it to the turn they really don't want to fold.

Now of course this means you should be value betting everything. If they make a hand, they'll let you know about it. They will play exactly how you want them to and basically never put you to a hard decision. Remember, they're scared to raise you because you could have anything! So when you're value-betting they will call with worse a bunch and only raise their monsters. Perfect for you."
 
Fieldsy

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I'm going to give it a try next time. I've played against a few players like this and they drove me crazy.
 
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baudib1

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This is pretty much how I crush games at the Borgata.
 
ScottieDuncan

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Very good advice!!!
 
Fieldsy

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if you play this way...should my preflop raises always be the same regardless of position? Usually at the Borgata a standard 1/2 raise is 10-17.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Meh. I see these types of players go broke a lot. They often overplay position with any two cards and try to push level 1 thinkers off their hands. When they first sit down, their raises get respect for a short time. After awhile, other players get fed up and start calling their raises a lot, which creates huge multiway pots when the aggressor is holding a marginal or trash hand.

Despite what that post says, TAG actually works. I always see even the biggest nits sit there for 2 hours without seeing a flop before their preflop 4bet/shove gets called by 2-3 players who have KQ/A10/QJs. TAG doesn't necessarily mean "nit," though. It means picking your spots well.

Upswings for a TAG player may not be as steep as those for a LAG player, but the downswings are limited also.

Pick a style you are most comfortable with, fine tune it, and go with it.
 
Fieldsy

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I think its not just about pushing people off. You trap people and how its hard for them to put you on anything. Playing TAG when you hit a monster a lot of times players fold knowing how you play.
 
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do you really think raisig with 8-4 will let you earn money in the long run? just because people think you are maniatic then nobody will realise that is easy to eat your chips up in a bunch of hands unless you bee luckiest man in the planet?

you can try to bluff once in a time, and once in a time you can open a marginal hand and the board to lift up your hand, but you really believe that against the best one or 2 hands out of 8 you will always be ahead, or aces and kings will be folding to your 8-4, just because you say theny think you are a maniatic?

i really need to study this approach because really difficult to believe it on the first sight, regardless you are a experienced player to and i`m just a rookie, so i respect this view but need time to try it and buy it
 
Fieldsy

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do you really think raisig with 8-4 will let you earn money in the long run? just because people think you are maniatic then nobody will realise that is easy to eat your chips up in a bunch of hands unless you bee luckiest man in the planet?

you can try to bluff once in a time, and once in a time you can open a marginal hand and the board to lift up your hand, but you really believe that against the best one or 2 hands out of 8 you will always be ahead, or aces and kings will be folding to your 8-4, just because you say theny think you are a maniatic?

i really need to study this approach because really difficult to believe it on the first sight, regardless you are a experienced player to and i`m just a rookie, so i respect this view but need time to try it and buy it
that is the only thing I question and disagree with. Maybe once in a while just to keep that maniac approach.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I think its not just about pushing people off. You trap people and how its hard for them to put you on anything. Playing TAG when you hit a monster a lot of times players fold knowing how you play.

But that's the thing. They don't fold. They are first level thinkers, which means they see only their hands.

Unless you are super tight, most players won't even notice you have a narrow starting range. In fact, you can often offset a tight image by just being open and friendly at the table. Most 1/2 players are gamblers, not poker players.

Bet for value and know when to fold.
 
Fieldsy

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But that's the thing. They don't fold. They are first level thinkers, which means they see only their hands.

Unless you are super tight, most players won't even notice you have a narrow starting range. In fact, you can often offset a tight image by just being open and friendly at the table. Most 1/2 players are gamblers, not poker players.

Bet for value and know when to fold.
Right. So when you hit a monster they cant fold top pair. The raise in lp is to get money in. From there you should only cbet sometimes and the other times check. If the villain shows any aggression you fold. The goal with these lp raises is to try and stack players. Position is on your side and it drives people crazy. Knowing a player is last to act with cards I can never put him on makes it frustrating.

The way you suggest also works, I just want to try something new. I'd like to be that guy that has the table guessing.
 
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baudib1

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do you really think raisig with 8-4 will let you earn money in the long run? just because people think you are maniatic then nobody will realise that is easy to eat your chips up in a bunch of hands unless you bee luckiest man in the planet?

you can try to bluff once in a time, and once in a time you can open a marginal hand and the board to lift up your hand, but you really believe that against the best one or 2 hands out of 8 you will always be ahead, or aces and kings will be folding to your 8-4, just because you say theny think you are a maniatic?

i really need to study this approach because really difficult to believe it on the first sight, regardless you are a experienced player to and i`m just a rookie, so i respect this view but need time to try it and buy it

Yes. It's hard to get AA or KK.
 
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baudib1

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But that's the thing. They don't fold. They are first level thinkers, which means they see only their hands.

Unless you are super tight, most players won't even notice you have a narrow starting range. In fact, you can often offset a tight image by just being open and friendly at the table. Most 1/2 players are gamblers, not poker players.

Bet for value and know when to fold.

In 8 hours of live play you rarely get enough monsters to wait around. TAGfish and nitfish and whales can wait around for the nuts while superior players take money from all of them.
 
loafes

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I think this lag approach is definitely the most profitable if you have the ability to back it up. Waiting around for hands just throws away to many chances of taking the fishes money.
 
Mr Sandbag

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In 8 hours of live play you rarely get enough monsters to wait around. TAGfish and nitfish and whales can wait around for the nuts while superior players take money from all of them.

I never said to wait around for monsters...

I was just saying that the assumption your monsters won't get paid off because of a tight image is false.

TAG also doesn't mean you can't ever bluff. It just involves more patience and picking spots rather than brute force aggression every time the player is in position.

But don't get me wrong... I'm not saying one style is better than the next.
 
Fieldsy

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I never said to wait around for monsters...

I was just saying that the assumption your monsters won't get paid off because of a tight image is false.

TAG also doesn't mean you can't ever bluff. It just involves more patience and picking spots rather than brute force aggression every time the player is in position.

But don't get me wrong... I'm not saying one style is better than the next.

That is the great thing about this way. You pick the best spots to bluff (best position). Even if people catch on when you are doing it, you are going to put a lot of people on tilt by doing this. They will want to stack you anytime you do this. The great thing about it is you will be folding a lot whenever your monsters do not come up.

I remember a couple of times this guy would raise right when I was the BB. Anytime he was the button he would raise. This made me want to crush him, and instead of my TAG style, I would play marginal hands with terrible position.
 
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baudib1

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It's not really about bluffing. Raise, get 2 callers, flop is 722r, cbet and win uncontested 60% of the time is a great spot.

It's more about creating big pots in position, winning $180 pots where you get 2 streets of value with J9 on Jxx or A7 on Axx instead of winning $25 when you limp.
 
Fieldsy

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When you raise from position with any two cards, how many callers are you looking to get? Live 1/2 at the casinos you have to bet a good amount especially if people limped in.

Say you are the BTN with 78o, 4 people already limped (sb bb still have to act). How much do you bet here? I'd just like 1 maybe 2 callers so maybe bet 17?

OR

Do we bet 10-12 bucks and want to get 3-4 callers?
 
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baudib1

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I don't raise ATC. I don't care how many callers I get.
 
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Jay65

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I read this post somewhere and I thought it was very interesting. Let me know what you all think about this strategy. What is good, what is bad about it?

"This forum has given me lots of help over the years, both with poker and life. So I'll try to give back by outlining how to crush live 1-2 and 2-5 holdem games.

I've been playing in these games since they got popular in about 2004. I played almost every day in 2004-2005, but have since gotten old and boring and only play 3-4 times a year. If you're like me, and you're on this site so you probably are, you started off in NL thinking that a standard TAG style was the way to get the money. And while you will make money playing this style, you won't crush the game. Even the idiots in these games will peg you as a tight player, and you won't get paid off enough. So you'll only make big scores by coolering people or having a total maniac/idiot sit down.

The way to crush these games is through the relentless use of position and aggression. Think about when you see people with huge stacks in these games - the 6+ buy-in stacks. Are they sitting there set-mining? No. They are playing lots of pots, and they are playing very aggressively. When you confuse opponents at this level, and they are very easy to confuse, they will make HUGE mistakes against you. This is how you start killing the game.

The Golden Rule: Play as many pots as possible in position. Bunch of limpers to you on the button with Q8s? Raise. J10 off? Raise. Any pocket pair, raise. Make the pot bigger because you're going to make way, way better decisions then your opponents and the positional advantage is huge. And sooner or later, and probably sooner, you're going to show down one of your awful hands and you will be labeled a maniac by the clowns who don't even know what position is let alone how to account for it.

Now of course you aren't really a maniac at all. In most cases, raise in late position and bet any flop, but shut down if called. Take free cards a bunch. Your opponents will be really confused by your play. They won't think "that guy raises all the time, I'm going to play back at him.' They'll think "that guy is always raising, he could have anything, I'm going to check to him." Low limit players are already way too passive, and by confusing them you make them even more so, which is great for you.

As an aside, every once in a while these guys will do something incredibly retarded because they are sick of you raising all the time. So like you'll raise KQ in late position, the flop will be QQ4, you make a continuation bet and some donk decides to check raise you all in because no way can you have the queen. See they will see you winning tons of pots without a showdown and decide to eventually do something about it, but they suck at poker and don't understand position, so they'll just end up making huge mistakes. They'll say things like "figures, the ONE TIME HE ACTUALLY HAD SOMETHING!" Just smile, shrug, and stack their chips.

Now, since these guys are awful, you want to play pots with them, especially if you are at all deep. The average low limit player is horrible at playing deep and makes no adjustments. So if a donk raises in early position and you're deep, call with your 84s in late position. When you make 2 pair or a straight he will call off his whole stack with his aces - remember, you are the maniac who can have anything. This is why you shut down on the flop in most cases when you are the aggressor: once they make it to the turn they really don't want to fold.

Now of course this means you should be value betting everything. If they make a hand, they'll let you know about it. They will play exactly how you want them to and basically never put you to a hard decision. Remember, they're scared to raise you because you could have anything! So when you're value-betting they will call with worse a bunch and only raise their monsters. Perfect for you."
Reverse question here : How would you play against yourself?
 
Fieldsy

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If I had to play against someone like that, I would play TAG and take advantage of position over that player. I wouldn't tighten up and just play monster hands, because a player like that will simply fold when they see I am finally in a hand. You can't sit around and wait for big hands.

Playing against a player like that, you def. want position over them and you have to isolate them. Players like that like to min raise and get into multiway pots, if this happens you should re-raise to isolate.

All in all, to beat this kind of player...
- Raise in position
- Isolate
- Never try to outflop them. Play hands that are a little better than their range.
- Never re-raise light
 
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baudib1

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All in all, to beat this kind of player...
- Raise in position
- Isolate
- Never try to outflop them. Play hands that are a little better than their range.
- Never re-raise light

3-betting light should be your No. 1 weapon against people who open too wide
 
LeeCallaghan

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:D good idea, thanks for the tip!:icon_fara
 
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I've found this style of play is a little swingy but it can definitely be the most winning strategy if employed correctly. I've seen "maniacs" consistently stacking chips on a regular basis at low stakes soley because there aren't any players at these stakes that are going to play back at you.
 
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