How to avoid doing something you know you shouldn't

h_lance · Mar 17, 2011

I am new to this forum. I like playing poker, but I have a huge, lame weakness. I get on tilt and do things I know are wrong. I didn't used to do this - it is a rather recent development.

Here is a specific example; first I will describe the tilting setup - I was playing on FT at a rather aggressive 50 cent BB table (no haters, please, that's my current level and where I belong if I don't fix this issue). The first thing that happened was that I called down a decent raise from a blind, with AQo. The guy who made the raise had been making aggressive raises out of position with trash, so I felt it was no problem. I flopped QQX, with two hearts on the board, matching my ace. I checked, he fired a big bet and I cold called. The next card was a low heart, giving me nut flush draw. He put me all in and I happily called. He had KK, including the king of hearts for the no-good flush draw. Of course he rivered a two-outer king and stacked me with a full house. That put me on tilt, I guess.

Then I picked up QQ on the button and another raise-happy maniac guy raised into me. I decided to cold call and see if I could pick up another bet after the flop (he almost always c-bet his raises) - thought he might run if I re-raised. Of course this decision SHOULD logically entail letting the queens go if things don't work out. The flop was something like 986, which did not make me happy. He made a bullshit looking bet, I raised, and he went all-in. What kind of an idiot would call that? Yet somehow, I found myself unable to get away from my precious queens and called. To my surprise he "only" had 98 for top 2P; I honestly expected to see a straight.

I realize that my decision to cold call and try to extract a c-bet is debatable, but that's not what I'm talking about - the issue here is making that call that I KNEW was wrong. I also realize that some people may be thinking "sure hope I play with this donk", which is not a strong motivation to give me advice. Still, there is a forum here. Does anyone else have a problem with these kind of zombie calls? Does anyone have a technique to deal with this?

stuedoopoker · Mar 17, 2011

My thoughts on the hands.

Hand one, Not being a 6max - Im guessing - expert, on any expert to be honest. I would say depending on image, Villian getting it in with kings was not terrible, and he got lucky - fair doos. I play 95% HU and so maybe people will disagree that logic on 6max.

Second hand. Villain 3bets the flop, dont answer this, but think to yourself - jot it down perhaps. What hand range is he 3betting all in that you CAN beat at that point, and what hands in this range can you NOT beat. Villian played his hand better than you played yours imo.

Anyway - maybe my analysis it total crp, I dont know, 6max/FR are not my forte. But what I am getting at is - big hands big pots, small hands small pots. One pair (over or not) is not a big hand (Hu aside)

What I do know about is control.

Understand this, read it until it goes in "Its perfectly ok to finish the day down on your bankroll - it is not OK to finish broke".

Even though I would say that neither villian played that hand uber donk like, you should love bad players, we make money from bad players. You should punish their mistakes. If everybody was solid we (or at least I) would not make money. Sure sometimes they get lucky, but in the long term, if you make the right decisions you will take their money.

Good luck

h_lance · Mar 18, 2011

Thanks - I completely agree with your analysis. What bugs me is that I knew it was a dumb call but made it anyway, out of tilt and frustration. Anyway, emotional control is a major thing to work on, I guess.

ben_rhyno · Mar 18, 2011

h_lance said:
I am new to this forum. I like playing poker, but I have a huge, lame weakness. I get on tilt and do things I know are wrong. I didn't used to do this - it is a rather recent development.

Here is a specific example; first I will describe the tilting setup - I was playing on FT at a rather aggressive 50 cent BB table (no haters, please, that's my current level and where I belong if I don't fix this issue). The first thing that happened was that I called down a decent raise from a blind, with AQo. The guy who made the raise had been making aggressive raises out of position with trash, so I felt it was no problem. I flopped QQX, with two hearts on the board, matching my ace. I checked, he fired a big bet and I cold called. The next card was a low heart, giving me nut flush draw. He put me all in and I happily called. He had KK, including the king of hearts for the no-good flush draw. Of course he rivered a two-outer king and stacked me with a full house. That put me on tilt, I guess.

Then I picked up QQ on the button and another raise-happy maniac guy raised into me. I decided to cold call and see if I could pick up another bet after the flop (he almost always c-bet his raises) - thought he might run if I re-raised. Of course this decision SHOULD logically entail letting the queens go if things don't work out. The flop was something like 986, which did not make me happy. He made a bullshit looking bet, I raised, and he went all-in. What kind of an idiot would call that? Yet somehow, I found myself unable to get away from my precious queens and called. To my surprise he "only" had 98 for top 2P; I honestly expected to see a straight.

I realize that my decision to cold call and try to extract a c-bet is debatable, but that's not what I'm talking about - the issue here is making that call that I KNEW was wrong. I also realize that some people may be thinking "sure hope I play with this donk", which is not a strong motivation to give me advice. Still, there is a forum here. Does anyone else have a problem with these kind of zombie calls? Does anyone have a technique to deal with this?

That is higher than most of the players on this site so noone will be hating lol.

First hand is a cooler, would probably tilt me a little. Second is that too probably. Maybe your QQ are beat this time but sometim it will be A9, 1010 or JJ doing that aswell. Probably correct to fold but not a terrible call either

cishlego · Mar 18, 2011

bankroll management

Hey guys,

Im also new to this forum. I started playing poker when i was 21 today i am 24 and i am in my last year of university.
In the beginning of my poker career i have been playing very tight and i made quite a good profit(even though i weas to tight) in tournaments and sitngos. Thats means that i became third in a tourney with 3000 entrants 26 dollar buyin, the payout was about 3200 dollars and i also won 1 or 2 others where i cashed about 700 . As i didnt know much about poker i just spend all the money on a nice trip.

not such a good decision i thought afterwards.......
After my vacations i deposited 50 dollars on ft again, as in the beginning and i started to play cash games (0.25 0.5 - 5 10). This didnt work out as i thought it as i got on tilt and lost about 1k.Then i started to read a lot about poker and see thousands of pokervideos and coaching sessions which made me for sure a better player. Afterwards i deposited 50 dollars on pokerstars and i made it up to 4k in about 2 months playing low and medium stakes. Guess what, i lost all the 4k in like 48hours and i really got on tilt as you guys can imagine...
Then my gf had 30 dollars in her pks account and i made it up again to 2k in one week playing cashgames and being lucky in one smaller tourney again. I lost 1k again and i withdrawed my money which was left and made my gf a present as i really felt bad about it.
After all that i lost about 1k again, but i am planning to do a deposit of 50 or 100 on pks again and plan my bankroll much wiser.I would love to here any comments on my situation .

Thanx guys

martin

TheKAAHK · Mar 18, 2011

Whoa, triple post! lol. (now fixed...)

Dude, at this point I haven't even read it/them yet, but I would advise you not to do that. Use the edit button at the bottom right corner of your post if you want to add/change anything.

Now to read the post....

Ok, here's what I think. Give yourself a stop-loss and stick with it. If you have 1K and are playing, let's say 50nl, then stop after losing 2 or 3 buy-ins. Don't chase your losses, don't say "maybe one more time", don't change over to SNG or MTT, just STOP! Simple.

cishlego · Mar 18, 2011

thanx for your reply. the thing is that i got on tilt and i dont know how to get off it....???!!!! Its really annoying because i know i can play well, but i let my emotions play to much. any advise on that???

josephs333 · Mar 19, 2011

I think everyone plays tight when they first start playing poker, Its all about making the right reads and picking up on the way people bets.

pokerwhispererA · Mar 19, 2011

I had a similar problem as you
I could not leave the game, when I start to lose
with our girls' emotions are even stronger, guilt and a desire to return what was lost kills common sense
I decided to just play free tournaments, while I get back everything I lost. currently progressing nicely, a little slower, but keep the set goal
this is my advice to you take a short break and try this way to return some money
I hope this is of any help

Charade You Are · Mar 19, 2011

h_lance said:
I realize that my decision to cold call and try to extract a c-bet is debatable, but that's not what I'm talking about - the issue here is making that call that I KNEW was wrong. I also realize that some people may be thinking "sure hope I play with this donk", which is not a strong motivation to give me advice. Still, there is a forum here. Does anyone else have a problem with these kind of zombie calls? Does anyone have a technique to deal with this?

I wish I did. Nothing you can do about that AQ hand, it happens.

Laying down big pockets pairs is always a problem for me. Sometimes, I've made the call "knowing" it was wrong to find out the guy had JJ

, so you just can't "know". With obvious flush boards and sometimes str8s (depending on the preflop play) I can lay down a big pp, but not always.

Stu_Ungar · Mar 19, 2011

Learn to play better poker.

THe reason people have trouble laying down hands when they should is thay have no idea where they are postflop.

Is your villian agressive or passive? Does his action indicate strength or does he polarise his range?

What is your villians range? Basically if you add up all the hands you beat abd all the hands that beat you are you behind or ahead?

How much of villians range does the board hit. OK villian is agressive and able to bluff.. but the board hits 60% of his range.. he dosent need to bluff he has value 60% of the time.

Basically making bad calls is usually a symptom of not having a clue where you are postflop, so learn to play better poker... you cant answer all three of thise questions and still make bad calls.

Whats his range.

How much of it hits this board?

How often does he take an aggressive action, how often do you think he takes an aggressive action with air / a hand you beat?

megl · Mar 20, 2011

@OP
I know what you're talking about

Everybody tilts sometimes. The good thing about it, which you need to hold on to, is that you know when you're tilting. So as soon as you realize you've gone into tilt mode, STOP PLAYING and take a break!
Practice recognizing your tilt mode and taking the consequence (break) as early in the process as possible, and you will find yourself with a healthier BR as you learn to stop your sessions before the tilt costs you serious money.

cishlego · Mar 20, 2011

going on tilt

thanks for your tip! whats serious money for you by the way? I won 4k in a nl holdem tourney with a 26 dollar buyin and then spend the money on a trip.... Afterwards i cashed out several times 500-800 dollars by winning some cash games and being lucky in smaller tourneys and multitable sitnos. I got on tilt by winning 4k in one month with a 50dollar deposit and then lost it all in 48 hours. After that i lost about 1k of my own money. I let my emotions play to much right now , but im planing to deposit 50-100 bucks after my last semester at uni. Can anyone give me any good ideas how to know when you are on tilt and with which bankroll it is the best to start in order to get to 5 k in a long period??!! Thanx guys

Vfranks · Mar 20, 2011

I think you should look into Bank Roll Management (BRM), if you haven't already.

essambb · Mar 23, 2011

you should stick to the top 10 hands in poker at first until you have your table image and dont bluff more than twice

MediaBLITZ · Mar 23, 2011

cishlego said:
thanks for your tip! whats serious money for you by the way? I won 4k in a nl holdem tourney with a 26 dollar buyin and then spend the money on a trip.... Afterwards i cashed out several times 500-800 dollars by winning some cash games and being lucky in smaller tourneys and multitable sitnos. I got on tilt by winning 4k in one month with a 50dollar deposit and then lost it all in 48 hours. After that i lost about 1k of my own money. I let my emotions play to much right now , but im planing to deposit 50-100 bucks after my last semester at uni. Can anyone give me any good ideas how to know when you are on tilt and with which bankroll it is the best to start in order to get to 5 k in a long period??!! Thanx guys

Your issue is pretty clear - you are not playing poker, you are gambling.

Quoting Daniel Negreanu -
"The true test of a poker player is how well he plays when things are going terribly.
"The best poker player in the world, Phil Ivey, routinely calls it quits early in sessions when things are going badly. It's the exact opposite of what 99% of poker players do!
"Most players chase, and just want to get 'unstuck,' which means they'll often play for days when they are losing. That's a terrible way to approach poker as a business and it's buried plenty of people."

cishlego · Mar 24, 2011

thanx for your tip . I kind of recognize that i was gambling instead playing right poker in the last year. Do you guys have any tips on how to control your bankroll better and when to cashout??!!

best

Kountess · Mar 26, 2011

h_lance said:
I am new to this forum. I like playing poker, but I have a huge, lame weakness. I get on tilt and do things I know are wrong. I didn't used to do this - it is a rather recent development.

Here is a specific example; first I will describe the tilting setup - I was playing on FT at a rather aggressive 50 cent BB table (no haters, please, that's my current level and where I belong if I don't fix this issue). The first thing that happened was that I called down a decent raise from a blind, with AQo. The guy who made the raise had been making aggressive raises out of position with trash, so I felt it was no problem. I flopped QQX, with two hearts on the board, matching my ace. I checked, he fired a big bet and I cold called. The next card was a low heart, giving me nut flush draw. He put me all in and I happily called. He had KK, including the king of hearts for the no-good flush draw. Of course he rivered a two-outer king and stacked me with a full house. That put me on tilt, I guess.

Then I picked up QQ on the button and another raise-happy maniac guy raised into me. I decided to cold call and see if I could pick up another bet after the flop (he almost always c-bet his raises) - thought he might run if I re-raised. Of course this decision SHOULD logically entail letting the queens go if things don't work out. The flop was something like 986, which did not make me happy. He made a bullshit looking bet, I raised, and he went all-in. What kind of an idiot would call that? Yet somehow, I found myself unable to get away from my precious queens and called. To my surprise he "only" had 98 for top 2P; I honestly expected to see a straight.

I realize that my decision to cold call and try to extract a c-bet is debatable, but that's not what I'm talking about - the issue here is making that call that I KNEW was wrong. I also realize that some people may be thinking "sure hope I play with this donk", which is not a strong motivation to give me advice. Still, there is a forum here. Does anyone else have a problem with these kind of zombie calls? Does anyone have a technique to deal with this?

For the 1st example I wouldn't have called I would have re-raised him! Calling is a sign of weakness also lets people catch up. You let the player see it for cheap....

Kountess · Mar 26, 2011

h_lance said:
I am new to this forum. I like playing poker, but I have a huge, lame weakness. I get on tilt and do things I know are wrong. I didn't used to do this - it is a rather recent development.

Here is a specific example; first I will describe the tilting setup - I was playing on FT at a rather aggressive 50 cent BB table (no haters, please, that's my current level and where I belong if I don't fix this issue). The first thing that happened was that I called down a decent raise from a blind, with AQo. The guy who made the raise had been making aggressive raises out of position with trash, so I felt it was no problem. I flopped QQX, with two hearts on the board, matching my ace. I checked, he fired a big bet and I cold called. The next card was a low heart, giving me nut flush draw. He put me all in and I happily called. He had KK, including the king of hearts for the no-good flush draw. Of course he rivered a two-outer king and stacked me with a full house. That put me on tilt, I guess.

Then I picked up QQ on the button and another raise-happy maniac guy raised into me. I decided to cold call and see if I could pick up another bet after the flop (he almost always c-bet his raises) - thought he might run if I re-raised. Of course this decision SHOULD logically entail letting the queens go if things don't work out. The flop was something like 986, which did not make me happy. He made a bullshit looking bet, I raised, and he went all-in. What kind of an idiot would call that? Yet somehow, I found myself unable to get away from my precious queens and called. To my surprise he "only" had 98 for top 2P; I honestly expected to see a straight.

I realize that my decision to cold call and try to extract a c-bet is debatable, but that's not what I'm talking about - the issue here is making that call that I KNEW was wrong. I also realize that some people may be thinking "sure hope I play with this donk", which is not a strong motivation to give me advice. Still, there is a forum here. Does anyone else have a problem with these kind of zombie calls? Does anyone have a technique to deal with this?

Oh but the main topic is folding a pair. My advice would be very simple. 1st poker does put ur brain on tilt drink water take a sec. to think if you're not confident fold, if u second guess fold.

cishlego · Apr 3, 2011

tilting in tourneys

hey guys,

I started playing again and i made it to 500dolars with a 40dolar deposit. I play pretty solid in cash games but my problem are the tourneys. I won in summer 3.5k in a tourney with a 26 dolara buy in but since then nuthing big has happened. I tend to tilt much more in tourneys as in cash games does this happen to u guys aswell?? Please any advise on that

MediaBLITZ said:
Your issue is pretty clear - you are not playing poker, you are gambling.

Quoting Daniel Negreanu -
"The true test of a poker player is how well he plays when things are going terribly.
"The best poker player in the world, Phil Ivey, routinely calls it quits early in sessions when things are going badly. It's the exact opposite of what 99% of poker players do!
"Most players chase, and just want to get 'unstuck,' which means they'll often play for days when they are losing. That's a terrible way to approach poker as a business and it's buried plenty of people."

benevg · Apr 3, 2011

cishlego said:
hey guys,

I started playing again and i made it to 500dolars with a 40dolar deposit. I play pretty solid in cash games but my problem are the tourneys. I won in summer 3.5k in a tourney with a 26 dolara buy in but since then nuthing big has happened. I tend to tilt much more in tourneys as in cash games does this happen to u guys aswell?? Please any advise on that

pick a game and stay with it. big scores in tournaments are appealing, but they also come a long way apart for most people. if you are a winner in cash games, that should normally prove a steadier source of income than tournies, so i'd say just stick to that.

cishlego · Apr 4, 2011

hey

thanx for your answer mate. what do mean by that tourneys come along way apart????

MediaBLITZ · Apr 4, 2011

cishlego said:
hey

thanx for your answer mate. what do mean by that tourneys come along way apart????

Means it can be a while before you cash again. At least in cash you have an opportunity to make money each and every hand.
Playing tourney's you have to outwit, outplay, outlast and out chip like 90% of the field before you make any money. Very tough to do on a consistent basis.

spstevens · Apr 5, 2011

When I identify a specific problem in my game as you just described I write it down short and sweet on a post it note and stick it on my screen , it helps me remember to think it out before I act. Might help you as well.

benevg · Apr 5, 2011

cishlego said:
hey

thanx for your answer mate. what do mean by that tourneys come along way apart????

big scores come a long way apart. sorry about making this unclear. basically, playing MTTs has a lot of variance where you could lose or min-cash in a long streak of them - which you have experienced first-hand, apparently.

but really, if tournaments tilt you, why do you keep playing?

How to avoid doing something you know you shouldn't

h_lance

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