How to adjust the game when going from 2NL to 5NL?

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megl

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After grinding out 36 bb/100 at 2NL FR cash games on Stars for a couple of weeks, I moved up to 5NL, and it seems to me like 5NL is a noteably different game than 2NL. Anyone here has the same experience? Even though it's still the lowest of the micro levels, it seems to me that the 5NL tables are much tighter than 2NL and it's much harder to get action on premium hands - even if I'm generally playing something like 21/9 in a FR game, people still fold most of the time when I raise preflop with my aces or kings. I only have a couple of thousand hands at 5NL yet, but my winrate so far is noteably lower than it was at 2NL. I found that going from 2NL to 5NL I need to 3-bet more (my 3bet % was too low anyway even for 2NL) and be much more selective when c-betting and 3-betting - I find this level takes more postflop skills to beat, can't just play autopilot postflop like I did on 2NL. Actually I found it easier to use agreesion to bully people off pots at 2NL than at 5NL, which is opposite of what I would have expected!?
Question: I feel I need to tighten up preflop after going from 2NL to 5NL - but then, that's what the opponents are doing, so would it be more profitable to do the opposite and loosen up a bit PF instead?
Anyone with recent experience from these micro limits - your advice is much appreciated :)
 
Jagsti

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I'm sure FX will be along shortly.
 
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fx20736

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Jagsti said:
I'm sure FX will be along shortly.
Click to expand...

lol

megl said:
After grinding out 36 bb/100 at 2NL FR cash games on Stars for a couple of weeks, I moved up to 5NL, and it seems to me like 5NL is a noteably different game than 2NL. Anyone here has the same experience? Even though it's still the lowest of the micro levels, it seems to me that the 5NL tables are much tighter than 2NL and it's much harder to get action on premium hands - even if I'm generally playing something like 21/9 in a FR game, people still fold most of the time when I raise preflop with my aces or kings. I only have a couple of thousand hands at 5NL yet, but my winrate so far is noteably lower than it was at 2NL. I found that going from 2NL to 5NL I need to 3-bet more (my 3bet % was too low anyway even for 2NL) and be much more selective when c-betting and 3-betting - I find this level takes more postflop skills to beat, can't just play autopilot postflop like I did on 2NL. Actually I found it easier to use agreesion to bully people off pots at 2NL than at 5NL, which is opposite of what I would have expected!?
Question: I feel I need to tighten up preflop after going from 2NL to 5NL - but then, that's what the opponents are doing, so would it be more profitable to do the opposite and loosen up a bit PF instead?
Anyone with recent experience from these micro limits - your advice is much appreciated :)
Click to expand...

36bb/100? What is your sample size? That doesn't sound sustainable for any reasonable period of time. Also 21/9??? That is pretty loose and pretty weak.
That's too much limping, too much calling.

I have consistently shown a profit @2nl but get beat up every time I've tried to move up.

I can't give you advice about how to play but what I can say is, make sure you have plenty of bankroll and be prepared to ride out the storm. Also make sure you are selecting tables wisely. If no one calls your raises, either raise more and steal until they start playing back at you or find looser tables.

There are some who say there is no difference between the two limits but there is. In fact Blackrain79 who is a giga-grinder said the jump from 2nl to 5nl is the biggest jump there is.
 
acky100

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I dont understand the 36BB/100 part seems massively high! i moved up from 2NL just over a month ago and i dont know whats massively different apart from knowing you're playing with more money than 2dollars, but theres still the same type of fish lurking about, just be patient and dont let the step up F*** with your head. I think the downswings mentally hurt more than they do at 2NL. theres probably less fish too, but still a lot.

As for bankroll required to move up 100 dollars is a good benchmark, 20 buyins is plenty for this level aslong as ure willing to drop back to 2NL when you lose say 4 buy ins or so..... or you could grind a few mil with FX then step up (only joking buddy. well....yeah.)
 
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megl

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@fx20739
Sample size is 8200 hands, not much I know but since it kept sloping upwards with no serious swings I thought it was pretty sustainable so I had a shot at moving up.
You say I call too much preflop, I know what you mean but it has been profitable for me to always limp PF with any pair or suited ace and either lay it down on the flop, take down a big pot with my set or flush against calling stations, or sometimes even taking the pot with a small bet even if i didn't hit the flop. This is some of the stuff that I found I need to adjust after going to 5NL.
Actually my profit over 8200 hands from limping with A2s-ATs from any position is ~$8. Limping always with 22-99 is ~$1 profit.
 
acky100

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I've never tried limping with any suited ace, so i cant say whether its profitable or not, but at 2NL i raised every pair i got basically and showed a profit with every pair. At 5NL i decided to take FX's advice and limp with the smaller pairs and still raise medium + ones, this is working nicely and im showing profit with almost every pocket pair except a few, these are definately where a lot of the money comes from. If limping with suited aces is working for you then id still try it as the games arent too different just maybe play more by position and only limp behind other limpers in late position not just because you have a suited ace. What is your bankroll by the way? And you're right 8200 hands isnt very much, it could be that you just got on a good swing but yeah you could just be playing good also! Keep us updated on how it goes and good luck
 
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Being more posiiton aware when playing small pairs and suited aces is certainly something I'll work on, thanks for the advice :) My roll is currently just above $70 but as stated earlier I am prepared to drop down to 2NL again if my roll drops to $50. Ill let you know how it goes :)
 
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acky100 said:
I've never tried limping with any suited ace, so i cant say whether its profitable or not, but at 2NL i raised every pair i got basically and showed a profit with every pair. At 5NL i decided to take FX's advice and limp with the smaller pairs and still raise medium + ones, this is working nicely and im showing profit with almost every pocket pair except a few, these are definately where a lot of the money comes from. If limping with suited aces is working for you then id still try it as the games arent too different just maybe play more by position and only limp behind other limpers in late position not just because you have a suited ace. What is your bankroll by the way? And you're right 8200 hands isnt very much, it could be that you just got on a good swing but yeah you could just be playing good also! Keep us updated on how it goes and good luck
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?? I don't ever remember advocating limping into a pot. The only time I used to do this was completing the small blind with small pp''s and small suited Aces in a multi-way limped pot. I have now stopped doing even this.

In fact I am moving away from calling ever, on any street until the River. I just see no value whatsoever in calling. If you are fairly certain you have the best hand you are potentially sacrifcing value and if you are unsure if your hand is best you gain no information on your opponent's hand strength. I guess there are times on the River when you have a good hand but cannot really get a good read if your hand is best so in some cases I think it is ok to call on the River, otherwise I am going to continue to see how I can play perfectly aggressive poker.

Check out my aggression numbers from my last session. I believe the 2 times I called on the flop were shoves.

Also note that by forcing yourself to either raise or fold you become much more selective about the hands you play, I ended up being even tighter than I have been running for the past month:
 

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forsakenone

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what you need to do is be more aggressive. raise all pairs preflop if you are the first to act no matter what position, if raise and you have a small to medium pp calls if you have good odds. c-bet a lot more then you would at 2nl, i advise in adding "fold to c-bet" on your HUD, also, add "continuation bet" to see how often your opponent c-bets the flop.

the thing is they get tighter at this level but not much better, they will c-bet a lot more however most of the time they won't continue the aggression on the turn if they don't have anything really good like at least tptk type of hand, so you can take it down a lot of the time. also, this so called regulars can be 3bet a lot more often in position, they only continue with their top of the range, AA KK QQ AK and sometimes JJ.

also, i advise on opening 4xBB preflop.
 
acky100

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@FX yeah maybe i got the issue confused but anyways maybe i thought you didnt play lower pockets in early positions or something, oh whatever doesnt matter anyways, and forsakenone i think you got it spot on!
 
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I had a similar experience moving from 2nl to 5nl. On average they tend to be tighter, but also much more passive than in 2nl where there are tons of maniacs.

I got by quite well by loosening up and c-betting loads. You will still get most players who won't fold tptk so wait for your chances patiently and you do get paid off. I didn't get into 3betting pf until 10nl so I'm still getting used to it but I imagine opening up your 3bet range would work well at 5nls tight passive tables.

gl!
 
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