Horrible turn and river cards

akaRobbo

akaRobbo

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Say we hold TPGK, or we know were ahead on the flop, but we get called by the fish to our left. The turn card brings a straight combo, we continue to value bet and get called again. Then the river brings another straight combo, meaning villain only needs to be holding 1 card to make a straight... Its so annoying when this happens, and its been happening time and again lately.

What is the best play on the river? A defensive bet? How much should this defensive bet be with regard to the pot? Or do we trust our read and check fold? Of the times I check to the fish, they will put in a stupid pot size or over bet which is just obvious they have the straight. I suppose some could be bluffing but im pretty sure overbets usually mean the nuts.

Here's a few examples of what im talking about.

This first one wasn't too tough to call. Villain was tilted and donking about min raising basically everything.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

UTG ($11.97)
MP ($12.82)
CO ($17.35)
Button ($10)
SB ($17.06)
Hero (BB) ($12.23)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4
spade.gif
, 7
diamond.gif

UTG calls $0.10, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.25) 4
diamond.gif
, 7
club.gif
, 9
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.15, UTG calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.55) 10
heart.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, UTG calls $0.30

River: ($1.15) 6
heart.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, UTG raises to $1.30, Hero calls $0.65

Total pot: $3.75 | Rake: $0.17

Results below:
Hero had 4
spade.gif
, 7
diamond.gif
(two pair, sevens and fours).
UTG had 5
diamond.gif
, 2
diamond.gif
(high card, ten).
Outcome: Hero won $3.58


This is one without a defensive bet. Not sure what half pot means by villain.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Button ($10.55)
Hero (SB) ($10)
BB ($18.72)
UTG ($2.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A
spade.gif
, J
heart.gif

1 fold, Button raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.50) 8
club.gif
, 5
spade.gif
, J
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.28, Button calls $0.28

Turn: ($1.06) 7
heart.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.72, Button calls $0.72

River: ($2.50) 6
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.20, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.50 | Rake: $0.11

Results below:
Button didn't show


Cheers for thoughts/ help!
 
W

WormsworthBently

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i think with draw heavy boards and only a good kicker. a more passive line like checking back turn for value and decide on the river? Its hard to say without knowing the exact dynamics. If you know the player to be fishy and are confident in thin value bets then keep pounding, otherwise proceed with caution
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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There is no single plan that's best in such situations every time. Sure, they come up against complete unknowns, which is how you've posted them, but when you're seated with players who have various styles and with whom you have varying amounts of history as well as varying confidence in your reads on their styles, such factors can be enough to tip the balance toward a different decision / line than vs unknowns.
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

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looking at the way the hand played out and the way the cards ran out i would check fold easily here. Putting out a defensive bet is not necessarily a good play as you will get called by better hands usually. On the other hand you will get raised by better hands or even worse hands also as a bluff so i think to check fold is the best option here.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Leading out with hand 2 could've folded better hands. But probably well played because looking at the board your not beating much.
 
F

fishinthesea

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I would probably fold in both situations.
 
FanatsLV

FanatsLV

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probably oponent have midle pair or strong preflop hand like AK thats all to about worry in this hand... and in turn 3bet oponent bet... that what i do that situacion...
 
eidikos

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i think the best play there is check call.some times they have the straiight there and some times they are bluffing and value bet your pot.in my opinion its more profitable in longterm to call there than to fold every time in that situation
 
MisterLongFace

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looking at the way the hand played out and the way the cards ran out i would check fold easily here. Putting out a defensive bet is not necessarily a good play as you will get called by better hands usually. On the other hand you will get raised by better hands or even worse hands also as a bluff so i think to check fold is the best option here.

i totally agree with this

except i would call it check/decide

if you find yourself in these situations a lot, you gain pretty much nothing by defensive betting

dont be afraid to check and make a call sometimes. sometimes you have to call maybe a little too often to get an idea of how often people bet here having a better hand than you

the other value you get from checking is players often see your check as a sign u dont have the str8, but they think they have you beat anyways with their hand so they bet, and now a call here is value for you
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

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i totally agree with this

except i would call it check/decide

if you find yourself in these situations a lot, you gain pretty much nothing by defensive betting

dont be afraid to check and make a call sometimes. sometimes you have to call maybe a little too often to get an idea of how often people bet here having a better hand than you

the other value you get from checking is players often see your check as a sign u dont have the str8, but they think they have you beat anyways with their hand so they bet, and now a call here is value for you


Well explained by both. Thanks
 
IntenseHeat

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I have also been involved in hands that played out as described in the OP. As always, the way the hand should be played from the heroes perspective is going to depend on the table dynamics.

My general advice would be to definitely bet the flop. Don't let them see any free cards. Always make them pay to chase. Again, I would bet the turn to try to get some info and possibly a fold. On the river, it's pretty much a toss up as to how the hand should be played. Here is where table dynamics and individual reads are going to play a major role in tilting your decision one way or the other.

On the one hand you could be throwing chips away by betting into a superior hand. On the other, checking may open you up to a bluff that would be hard to call considering that the villain would only need one card to have you beat. And we all know from experience that there is no telling what a donkey might be holding or calling with. If I feel I've been successful in establishing my table image, I might feel confident in checking, as I often check the river when I feel that I'm ahead, allowing my opponents the opportunity to bluff at it. This may cause my opponent to be hesitant to bluff at it if they aren't holding the goods. Otherwise it's still 50/50 as to whether to bet or check. And if you do check and they make a big bet, it may be just as hard a decision as to whether you should call or fold, especially to an overbet that could be because the villain doesn't want you to call or because some idiot just doesn't know how to bet size to get paid off.

Because of the way I do play a lot of hands, I would probably check the river and fold to the overbet, although I have been known to call and pick off a bluff every now and then. I hate to show weakness and open myself up to a bluff. And I hate the thought that I might be letting some donkey get away with one. But more than anything, I hate rewarding a donkey for chasing down some improbable draw. Sometimes it's best to just let them have that pot. If they keep chasing like that they'll be giving those chips back soon enough.
 
P

Pavelito51

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I kind of don't like defensive bets, this makes to deny a bluff , if he raises you gonna fold, unless if you thinks he's trying to steal which in that case the C/C is better.
You should betpot the turn for all the times when 4 cards straight is not in at the river.
 
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