Holdem Pocket Pairs

At what stages does everyone start to play pocket pairs different for say.... a 10 person table? Here is about what I do:
2-6 : Call and hope to pick up a set.
7-Q : Raise substantially to get most opponents to lay down their hands.
K's-A's : Just double the raise to sort out a few players but hope to get some1 bluffing or going with a lower pair.

It depends (you will see this a lot for these kinds of questions) Ring game or tournament?

it just totally depends whos at the table, how strong some of them play. Weaker table you can bully with 2's or 3's but stronger table say in 1st position you got 10's kinda hard to push a big raise out. I just play according to my table i guess

Sizing your bets to the strength of your hand is a HUGE mistake that strong players will very quickly capitalize on.

it all depends on the table , ur image etc , if ur table is tight then you know when ur going heads up or 2 or 3 people are in a hand they will usually be strong preflop , but if its loose then with ur aces or kings u can raise and u know ulll get called , but i generally try and see anything less than 9's for as cheap as possible

Sizing your bets to the strength of your hand is a HUGE mistake that strong players will very quickly capitalize on.

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Yes and after rereading TOP a few times, I chuckled when David said that you should fold to a substantial reraise with QQ since it can only mean AA, KK and AK. Dang, some of the guys playing in '78 were exploitable preflop (same thing for the Doyle/Bones hand where the huge raise preflop indicated that Bones did not have AA or KK due to him always slowplaying early).

I usually set mine with 2s-6s, limping but calling some raises (within reason), the main advantage of this play is that if you do hit your set and you didn't raise pre-flop then your opponents will find it hard to put you on that hand. And if you don't hit it and end up with an underpair, you can get away from it without too much loss

i laugh at these people saying they limp with 2's to 6's. You are 8-1 to hit your set on flop or saying like that. Therfore for this to be a winning strategy, you need everyone at the table to limp in to get the right odds. With any pocket pair, first into pot you raise so you can c bet to win, and dont raise different with kings or aces, it will look fishy. Usually fold with 7's or less to a raise infront of you, unless you think you can outplay on flop and just do what you feel is right.

It really depends on your position. In early position, I usually limp with the medium pairs, raise with the big pairs, and fold the small pairs. In middle position, raise with the medium pairs, raise with the big pairs, and limp with the small pairs. And in late position, raise with any pair.

switch0723 said:

i laugh at these people saying they limp with 2's to 6's. You are 8-1 to hit your set on flop or saying like that. Therfore for this to be a winning strategy, you need everyone at the table to limp in to get the right odds. With any pocket pair, first into pot you raise so you can c bet to win, and dont raise different with kings or aces, it will look fishy. Usually fold with 7's or less to a raise infront of you, unless you think you can outplay on flop and just do what you feel is right.

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thanks for the mockery D) i guess i definitely need some help about things like this, thanks switch

switch0723 said:

i laugh at these people saying they limp with 2's to 6's. You are 8-1 to hit your set on flop or saying like that. Therfore for this to be a winning strategy, you need everyone at the table to limp in to get the right odds. With any pocket pair, first into pot you raise so you can c bet to win, and dont raise different with kings or aces, it will look fishy. Usually fold with 7's or less to a raise infront of you, unless you think you can outplay on flop and just do what you feel is right.

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I guess you have never heard of implied odds. There are a number of reasons why it can be good play to call a bet or limp in preflop with a medium to low pocket pair even if you are not currently getting the correct odds to do so. This is especially true if you and your opponents are playing deep stacked poker. As was stated before a small set is a well disguised hand and on the 1 in 8 times that you do hit the set you are normally a big favorite to win the hand. If the rest of the hand is played well you stand to win much more than the odds needed to justify the original call.

This is exactly what I did in my last NL game. I had 33 in early position and just called. three others also limped in. Flop come 7s 3d As - All hell breaks loose - apparently two others slow played pre-flop their AK and AQ - then the turn comes and it's 7d - so now I've got a boat and took all their money.

diamond_06_06 said:

I guess you have never heard of implied odds. There are a number of reasons why it can be good play to call a bet or limp in preflop with a medium to low pocket pair even if you are not currently getting the correct odds to do so. This is especially true if you and your opponents are playing deep stacked poker. As was stated before a small set is a well disguised hand and on the 1 in 8 times that you do hit the set you are normally a big favorite to win the hand. If the rest of the hand is played well you stand to win much more than the odds needed to justify the original call.

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yes i have heard of implied odds. Its just you limp 8 times to finally hit your set. By that time you have lost a lot of chips, so you need someone to hit a big hand just to get paid enough to catch up with the chips you have lost limping. Also if you hit your set and dont get paid. Then in total you have limped 16 times to hit a set again. It is a strategy but raising is a much better way of doing it. That way you give yourself a chance at winning by hitting the set and winning without it. If the flop comes high a c bet may take it. If the flop comes low, you have likely hit your set and your opponent wont have expected you to hit it. so will pay you off with marginal hands.

Just try raising with your pock pairs instead of limping, you will find the game much easier

Switch, this is not true at all depending of certain situations and you are doing a disservice to OP by saying you should always raise with low PP. Let's say the game is 300bb deep and very loose but passive. Raising your PP here in EP is really screwy since you are giving away reverse implied odds: the people that will call your raise are not at all favorable to folding to a single c-bet if they hit any part of the flop and you're now deep in trouble, drawing to 2 outs on the turn.

Sure, limping is not always right. I took a lot of flack in a hand where Tenbob limped 66 in medium position then called a raise from the blinds. I said that he should have folded preflop and got strange looks. Setmining is an important aspect of the game, especially in tournaments where there is no rake (and your implied odds need to be exactly the odds of you hitting your set) but it should be done with correct implied odds (or even better, rich implied odds, wich is the nature of deepstack play).

So, always raising your low PP is not right and can be akin to burning money depending on table conditions. Always limping is also not right. In a tight game where the stacks aren't deep (50-60BB) small PP have little to no value since you aren't going to get enough the times you hit the flop hard.

And people, look at the odds you are getting before auto-limping to set-mine. In late position, 33 is auto-muck with no one in the hand and blinds being loose (cannot steal).

jeffred1111 said:

Switch, this is not true at all depending of certain situations and you are doing a disservice to OP by saying you should always raise with low PP. Let's say the game is 300bb deep and very loose but passive. Raising your PP here in EP is really screwy since you are giving away reverse implied odds: the people that will call your raise are not at all favorable to folding to a single c-bet if they hit any part of the flop and you're now deep in trouble, drawing to 2 outs on the turn.


And people, look at the odds you are getting before auto-limping to set-mine. In late position, 33 is auto-muck with no one in the hand and blinds being loose (cannot steal).

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Of course you cant always raise with pock pairs. e.g pock 2's on button with everyone limped, a raise wont do much here. But are you telling me that at the deep end of a tourny, you wouldnt raise with pock 5's lets say 3rd to act? If not i would say your play is too weak. By raising here if you are called by 1 person you have 66% to win since they will miss flop 66% of time. Remember by raising in ep with pock 3's people will give you credit for a much stronger hand. Tournament poker is all about agression so i stand by my raising with a pp when first to enter a pot. Otherwise you are just throwing away chances to increase your stack

Also i cant believe you would muck 33 in late position with noone in pot. This is auto raise for me, since i will have position and will be the agressor and have a chance to connect big

A little something, one of my biggest wins in a single hand at a cash table came with pock 5's. I raised from early position (6 handed table) bb calls. Flop comes 557, he checks i c bet, he calls. Turn is a 9. He leads out i call. river is a 7. He checks i bet again he calls. He shows jj and says he couldnt put me on a 5 or a 7 after i raised from ep. That shows how by raising and hitting, you can still get paid off big, but by raising you increase your chances of winnnig without hitting.

Jeff just try raising each time you are first to enter pot with a pp. You will find life a lot easier im sure, and your mtt performances will be better.

I was clearly talking about cash games Switch and see my post in strat section for end game of donkaments (it's called RIO and other stuff...) where I clearly say that raise/stealing is our bread and butter. I know how to play donkaments.

And yes I've hit quads countless times with low pp after raising preflop for big cash but it doesn't matter: you said that limping into a pot is bad and I said that no, it has it's place sometimes, unless you completly hate set-equity on a loose table with 250+bb effective stacks. Raising 33 in EP still sucks if you know you're getting 4-5 overcalls after you limp, period.

And cards are not dependant on what I will do in late position if it's raised to me in cash games and in donkaments. The hell with folding 22 if the blinds are folding 60 % or more of the time, I'm raising ATC here since it is +EV.

Like everything in poker, there should be no "always" and no "never"

Jeff just try raising each time you are first to enter pot with a pp.

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No, this is positional and situational. But yes, limping PP in tournaments rarely has its place, in cash games, it has its place, but not always.

The reason you DONT raise with small pair is because you only make a set 1 in 8 times, so you will be stuck with a very vulnerable hand against hands that do a lot better against you. It makes no sense to create such a large pot, that only a high pair or overcards will call. Then, an overcard or two will land, and even if they don't, an overpair is definetly gonna make you broke on a "safe" looking flop. Then you have to hope that if you do catch a set, one of the other four cards doesn't give the overpair their set too.

I rarely ever raise with small pairs unless I'm in late position. If I am in early position, I am just limping, hoping that I can get in cheap, make a blind go broke from catching two pair, or crack a high pair by calling a small raise, instead of raising, then having to call a huge reraise, making it more expensive to draw for my set on the flop, which is only 3 cards. It's not like theyr'e going to let you see all five cards to the river and let you off the hook cheaply if you decide that you can't crack their high pair.

jeffred1111 said:

I was clearly talking about cash games Switch and see my post in strat section for end game of donkaments (it's called RIO and other stuff...) where I clearly say that raise/stealing is our bread and butter. I know how to play donkaments.

And yes I've hit quads countless times with low pp after raising preflop for big cash but it doesn't matter: you said that limping into a pot is bad and I said that no, it has it's place sometimes, unless you completly hate set-equity on a loose table with 250+bb effective stacks. Raising 33 in EP still sucks if you know you're getting 4-5 overcalls after you limp, period.

And cards are not dependant on what I will do in late position if it's raised to me in cash games and in donkaments. The hell with folding 22 if the blinds are folding 60 % or more of the time, I'm raising ATC here since it is +EV.

Like everything in poker, there should be no "always" and no "never"

No, this is positional and situational. But yes, limping PP in tournaments rarely has its place, in cash games, it has its place, but not always.

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AHHHHHH I SEE. I was talknig about tournys and you were talknig about cash games. I agree with limping in with pp in cash games in certain circumstances. I thought the OP was referring to a tourny however where i say a raise is always best. So we were both right

pocket pairs

Kinda the same way....I really hate low pocket pairs. But sometimes I like to play with them depends if I get a good feeling about them....Usually I just play what my gut instint tells me to and that works for me. But when I start second guessing myself that is where I just fall apart. LOL
Ex. Called with pocket 7's I was already in the money...they raised after the flop it was something like 3, 7, k....so I am pretty happy at this point...I called....then comes A...he goes all in...got me thinking what he could have...no flush on board....so I went for it....He caught another King on the River........His cards were AK off suited.........grrrrrrrr

i raise the same every hand i feel is raise worthy

umm......

hey Diamond 06 06
you said......
"I guess you have never heard of implied odds. There are a number of reasons why it can be good play to call a bet or limp in preflop with a medium to low pocket pair even if you are not currently getting the correct odds to do so. This is especially true if you and your opponents are playing deep stacked poker. As was stated before a small set is a well disguised hand and on the 1 in 8 times that you do hit the set you are normally a big favorite to win the hand. If the rest of the hand is played well you stand to win much more than the odds needed to justify the original call."

but wouldnt that mean lts good to limp in on EVERY hand you are delt?
i dont think its a good idea!
i say if you have less than middle pair ...8's...
texas fold'em

retoddx said:

i say if you have less than middle pair ...8's...
texas fold'em

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Why would you do that? even pocket 2's are favourite over a,k

at a ten person table? check with all PP's why? for the simple fact there are two more cards in play that take away from your hand!!!!!!!! 10 seats you like to see suited connectors verses the PP.