Help with the Math behind 3betting

C

CaptainKout

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I'm using my current downswing to re-examine my game. 3 betting is something I've been doing largely without thought. Just raising up good hands because I want to enter the pot with a raise. So what exactly should I be considering?

This is my thought.
Obviously I need to consider the villain's range and what odds I'm setting by raising. If I bet pot sized I'm setting my odds as a little worse than one to one(amount to call plus pot-sized of raise). The villains calling odds are 2 to one. So they can profitably call with the top 2/3 of their range, and in practice probably less if they're oop. So in order to 3bet profitably do I want to be ahead of about half their range(my odds) or just 2/3 of their range(their calling odds)?

So against someone with 20% pfr in blank position opens to 3bb, should I be raising with the top 10% of hands, 13%, much lower, or something completely different? Then make some adjustments on how the hand plays against their calling range. So hands like A9s while in the top 10% of hands probably doesn't play well if they'll call with all the stronger aces. If for example, he calls a 3bet with all his pfr hands(20% range) then what should I be raising with?

What if instead of raising pot sized I raise less, does the same math apply except with different ranges based on the different odds?

With the same thought process, to call behind I only would need to be ahead of less than half his range since the odds include the money from the blinds.

When it comes to 3betting light, am I just taking advantage of how infrequently he'll call or 4bet below optimal. So if he's calling/4betting only 1/10 of his pfr range, then I'm justified in 3 betting light because essentially I'm setting odds that are good enough for him to call but he isn't accepting the odds as often as he should. Is this right?
 
acky100

acky100

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Not totally sure what you're saying... but you're either 3betting for value, or as a bluff.

So it's no good 3betting AJs for value if the guy opens 30% of hands from the button but only calls 3bets with AQ+.

You can 3bet wider for value IP if opponents are just going to call 3bets oop and fold to cbets.

Generally look at their fold to 3bet stats, if theyre really low then you can add value hands to your 3bet range like AQ,AJ etc.

When 3bet bluffing look at fold to 3bet stat.

Maths on 3bet bluffing is just whatever you put into the pot thats not already there, so say you're 3betting as a bluff from the big blind:

btn opens 3bb, we make it 10 bb's in the bb (small blind folds)

we risk 9 (already put 1 in thats not ours) to win (3+0.5+1) < pot

so 9/(9+4.5) = 67%

This means if he folds 67% or more then 3betting will show instant profit.
 
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CaptainKout

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I guess the question is what am I 3betting for value? Even AK which is pretty much an auto 3bet, is as everyone likes to say, a drawing hand or a semibluff of sorts. 3betting pocket sevens are for value most of the time but would rather not even get called because they have little real value post flop(reverse implied odds).

If you know that the villain only calls/4bets with QQ+ then everyhand you 3bet(except KK and AA) is really a bluff rather than a raise for value.

So why do we threebet in the most general sense?
1)make a favorable stack to pot for our most likely hand postflop(strong aces)
2)value(premium pairs)
3)bluff(anything else that will show a profit based on how often then fold to 3bet)
4)?
5)?
 
acky100

acky100

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3betting 77 seems terrible to me against most guys btw.

You should probably post some hands where you've 3bet with opponents stats etc including 3bet and fold to 3bet stats, if you're 3betting 77 im gonna say you've got some big leaks in your thinking, which is fine.

I'd say we 3 bet in the most general sense to set up profitable situations.

-pure value; we have AK and we 3bet a 25/10 who calls 50% of 3bets, he calls OOP which sucks for him and he calls with hands like AQ, AJ,KQ,KJs etc. It's not hard to see how we have so much value here because with the lower SPR when we do flop an A or K, villain aint folding these dominated hands.

- Regaining the initiative is great, most times we can 3bet weak players like 30/12's with stuff as weak as KTs, QJo and if they're fit or fold players we just take it down with a c-bet. (note we probably shouldnt 3bet them with something like QJo if they never fold to c-bets)

-abusing our position, like the above example we're building a pot IP and making our opponent play OOP which is gonna suck for them if they just flat call, which most bad opponents do.

-and conversely making up for our lack of position which is why when we're OOP and someone has 3bet us we should usually be 4betting AK because we dont be the one to call a 3bet OOP and miss 2/3 of flops.


- Building big pots for when we have good hands yep.

-Building a bit of an image if you want an image at a certain table, image goes a long way in poker also.

-we also get the ability to 3bet as a pure bluff or squeeze also, if we never 3bet for value in these spots then observant opponents would run us over.

I think all in all, everyone knows it's hard to play against guys who're 3betting a decent amount and i guess that its a combination of a lot of things like image, opponents getting upset and tilting that helps these guys get paid off. The other day i was playing and i had 3bet a couple of times in squeeze spots, just due to getting a decent hand and a decent hand to just bluff with. The third time this situation came up i had AQ and usually i'm not 5bet shoving this hand but the regular i'd previously 3bet/squeezed twice before opened again, someone called him, and i squeezed it up in position, he 4bet again, and unlike the previous hand where he 4bet and folded to my shove, (obviously he was bluffing so i can tell he's tired of me doing this) he 4bet and called my shove, with ATs... This is a terrible adjustment on his part but he did this because my image was that of someone a bit splashy and crazy and i wouldnt normally be 5bet jamming AQ here but i got 100bb's of value from doing it because i knew my image and i knew this guy was getting sick of it.
 
acky100

acky100

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Erm just call with it mostly, it has a lot of value in hitting sets. 3betting it is just going to get you destroyed for the most part.
 
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