Which hands to defend blinds with?

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billatx

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Against most opponents I would :
a)3 bet/fold 22-66,78s-KQs
b)call 77-QQ,AK-AQ
c)3bet KK+

What do you think of my ranges?
 
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GWU73

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That seems like a decent range, but I would tend to avoid calling with suited connectors unless the opener is likely to commit to any 1 pair hand and we both have very deep stacks. I base my 3betting range upon villians fold to 3bet stat first and my hand second (I do need some hand value here), but I am always 3betting big pairs and AK.
 
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billatx

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That seems like a decent range, but I would tend to avoid calling with suited connectors unless the opener is likely to commit to any 1 pair hand and we both have very deep stacks. I base my 3betting range upon villians fold to 3bet stat first and my hand second (I do need some hand value here), but I am always 3betting big pairs and AK.

From the blinds:

1)I think 3betting AK preflop is not winning enough preflop.Calling is better.The same for big pairs 88-QQ that i'm usually not willing to go all in preflop.

2)I'm only calling with suited connectors on multiway pots.Else,i either 3bet or fold.The same for 66-.

3)Very rarely i will 3bet-5bet shove any pair against some opponent who is 4 betting me a lot.
 
acky100

acky100

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Very vague question but i think 3betting small pocket pairs and 89s type hands in btn vs blind situations is bad more often than not at full ring/6max games.
I dont like 3betting small pocket pairs unless im gonna 5bet shove them really but your question is too player dependant, there isn't a default range really.
 
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TheBowlBoy

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It depends on the player you're facing the steal from.

KQ and other broadway hands are good enough to flat from the blinds. Agree with acky about 3betting small pairs. You can flat them a lot if you don't suck post flop too bad, or if villain does suck post flop. For a 3bet bluff range you are better off 3betting stuff like A2s-A5s because of the blockers and if you flop a flush draw you can play it aggressively post flop.
 
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billatx

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It depends on the player you're facing the steal from.

KQ and other broadway hands are good enough to flat from the blinds. Agree with acky about 3betting small pairs. You can flat them a lot if you don't suck post flop too bad, or if villain does suck post flop. For a 3bet bluff range you are better off 3betting stuff like A2s-A5s because of the blockers and if you flop a flush draw you can play it aggressively post flop.

1)You can't play small pairs profitably postflop with normal stacks from blinds.There is a recend thread i opened you can take a look at.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/small-pocket-pairs-209788/

2)I do not like to call with KQ or others hands that are easily dominated from blinds.
 
acky100

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1) sometimes you can play them profitably, saying you cant is ridiculous. I agree a lot though, i fold them mostly. There are way better hands to 3bet with as a bluff.

2) totally wrong, KQ is not easily dominated from the blinds. Why is everyone so concerned with domination lately, so overrated when your opponents range is wide. Saying you dont like to call with KQ or others because theyre dominated is so so so backwards logic, because most people dont 3bet KQ for the EXACT reason that you get yourself dominated from your opponents call 3bet range...
 
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billatx

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1)I would gladly 3bet 33 from blinds most of the time against late openers,but i would never call without 150+ BBs effective stacks,or a multiway pot.

2)I would rather 3bet KQ from the blinds against late openers.I 'd never call.

*)After i 3bet from blinds,a cbet is coming on the flop most time.That is easily +EV.
 
acky100

acky100

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You're being really defensive when im trying to help what look like some very obvious leaks in your thinking/game.

Saying you'd "never call" KQ from the blinds against late opens because they're easily dominated is the most retarded logic ever for 3betting them. I give up.
 
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billatx

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You're being really defensive when im trying to help what look like some very obvious leaks in your thinking/game.

Saying you'd "never call" KQ from the blinds against late opens because they're easily dominated is the most retarded logic ever for 3betting them. I give up.

I'm not defensive,i want to learn.Maybe because i'm not american ,y english could be misunderstood as aggressive behaviour.

I'm sorry about that.Please explain if you like.I want to hear what you say.
 
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TheBowlBoy

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1)I would gladly 3bet 33 from blinds most of the time against late openers,but i would never call without 150+ BBs effective stacks,or a multiway pot.

2)I would rather 3bet KQ from the blinds against late openers.I 'd never call.

*)After i 3bet from blinds,a cbet is coming on the flop most time.That is easily +EV.

Your logic is flawed. What is the point in starting a thread asking questions and then when players more experienced than yourself you just argue?

Instead of posting a question, why not write up a theory essay on why you way is the best in the first place.

If somebody has say a 40% ATS, then KQ will dominate hands in that range far more often than it is dominated.

A 40% range looks roughly like this in poker stove:
4+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

So in this example we are dominated by AQ, AK,and QQ+ - I think that should be 36 combos due to our blockers.

Now lets see what we dominate: K2s-KJs, Q4s-QJs, Q8o-QJo, K7o-KJo. That is a lot more hands my friend. I'm not going to bother counting them up for you.

And maybe its true that YOU can't profit from flatting small pp's in the blinds but that by no means does not mean that it isn't possible. You only need to throw in the odd successful bluff with a pp that missed a set to make up for the times that you don't get paid off when you do hit a set.
 
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billatx

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Watching me disagree most probably means that i don't understand your explanation.Not that i don't take seriously what you say.Otherwise i wouldn't be in the forum all day.

Good explanation.
This compo counting preflop is not so easy to use,don't you agree?Is there any thread or link i could read about?Or maybe somebody explain a abit more in here?
 
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TheBowlBoy

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Counting combos is not easy, but seeing that KQ holds up pretty well against a wide range is very easy.
 
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queenie279

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Billatx what game are you playing? My play differs depending on what game and limit I am playing.
 
acky100

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Okay counting combos is quite easy

unpaired hands = 16 so 16 combo's of AK including the suited ones
suited hands = 4 AKs AKc AKh AKd
pairs = 6

so there are 12 ways to have unsuited AK 4 ways to have the suited ones. 16 in total.

If there is a flop with say K96 how many combos of AK could opponent have (3 kings left in deck, 4 aces) 3 x 4 = 12 ways he can have AK, if there were 2 kings out there would be 2 x 4 = 8 ways he could have AK.

BowlBoy has nailed the KQ example i think.

when you 3bet you are more likely to be dominated as you narrow his calling range to hands that do better and get rid of hands that you dominate, so you 3bet it he calls with AK,AQ, both of which are crushing you when the flop comes Kxx or Qxx.

Thats not to say 3betting it is bad, if the guy is calling too many 3bets then its great because he calls with worse hands that we dominate. Its all just so player dependant.
 
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billatx

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So say we have KQ on a K96 there are 8 AKs, 3 99s,3 66s,6 AAs, that beat as.

Do i have to count other compos like K9,96,KK ?

And how do i count opponents hand compos that i beat?
 
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TheBowlBoy

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So say we have KQ on a K96 there are 8 AKs, 3 99s,3 66s,6 AAs, that beat as.

Do i have to count other compos like K9,96,KK ?

And how do i count opponents hand compos that i beat?

Yes that is correct. If AA is in somebody's range then KK should usually be in their range as well. K9 and 96 or going to be more player dependent.
 
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billatx

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Yes that is correct. If AA is in somebody's range then KK should usually be in their range as well. K9 and 96 or going to be more player dependent.

How many are all possible hand compos one could be dealt?
 
Cafeman

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when you 3bet you are more likely to be dominated as you narrow his calling range to hands that do better and get rid of hands that you dominate, so you 3bet it he calls with AK,AQ, both of which are crushing you when the flop comes Kxx or Qxx.
You get what he's saying here billatx? By flatting pre you get to play against his whole stealing range, which you are normally doing pretty well against.

A lot of your questions can be boiled down to, "how do you play poker?"

Assuming you're not just here to program a bot, try putting some hands in the HA section, and don't forget to include reads/stats etc. So much of this is villain dependent.
 
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billatx

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So at the previous example:

We have KQ on a K96 there are 8 AKs, 3 99s,3 66s,6 AAs,3KKs that beat as .->

Total 23 compos that we lose.

If button steals 50 % how many compos do we beat that he has?
 
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billatx

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TheBowlBoy

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Yes you have to remove any exposed or dead cards from the deck. Pokerstove does this for you though.

Enter your hand into the Player 1 range slot and then put villains range into player 2 slot.
 
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