Hand Ranges - How to decide suits in a range

Hey CC:

I am a new member / player however playing 2nl and I feel like because the majority of players are so tight its improved my ability to put a player on a range of hands. However, when I read some more advanced articles I read things like ex "some clubs in the range." I really do not understand how to decide if a player have a specific suit in their range. Could someone help me with this as well as, potentially a past hand where there was two cards of a specific suit and they could neglect this suit from their range for a reason?

Thanks!

Also, I meant to add this to the "Learning Poker" section because I feel this applies to not just cash games.

I personally don't see a certain suit being laid down just because it's spades or clubs etc. If a person has suited connectors in their range l'm pretty sure it'll be all of the suits not just one.

i think what youre referring to is say when you open from say EP and MP, who is a 10/10 calls, flop comes AK2 all clubs, you can assume that villain almost never has a flush here, because all of his flush combos would be made up of hands like AK/AQ/KQ, etc. same goes for if the flop was say Kc 5c 2h, and you have Ac Js, you can again assume villain isnt calling with a flush draw, as the Kc is on the board, and you have the Ac, so you have a blocker to a big part of his potential flush range

jchoop said:

i think what youre referring to is say when you open from say EP and MP, who is a 10/10 calls, flop comes AK2 all clubs, you can assume that villain almost never has a flush here, because all of his flush combos would be made up of hands like AK/AQ/KQ, etc. same goes for if the flop was say Kc 5c 2h, and you have Ac Js, you can again assume villain isnt calling with a flush draw, as the Kc is on the board, and you have the Ac, so you have a blocker to a big part of his potential flush range

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That makes total sense. I understand what he was talking about now. Thanks that actually gave me some insight as well.

Yeah sorry BigCountry. I should have provided an example or some more background as that was a pretty vague question. Check out the post above for an example and let me know what you think as well

pocketehs said:

Yeah sorry BigCountry. I should have provided an example or some more background as that was a pretty vague question. Check out the post above for an example and let me know what you think as well

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No problem. I don't think I'd have any better read on this then Jchoop. He's one of the better cash players I've seen on this site and is definitely smarter then I am on the subject. I just try to help when I can, but in my opinion betting the river for value would be a reasonable play.

pocketehs said:

Yes, Jchoop that is what I mean. For instance, I had this hand this morning:

PokerStars Hand #85875888789: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/09/08 10:42:35 ET
Table 'Academia III' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: SB ($3.72 in chips)
Seat 2: BB ($6.07 in chips)
Seat 3: VILLAIN ($2.34 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+1 ($1.28 in chips)
Seat 5: MP ($2.02 in chips)
Seat 6: HJ ($2.05 in chips)
Seat 7: CO ($1.60 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO ($2.15 in chips)


SB: posts small blind $0.01
BB: posts big blind $0.02
UTG+1: posts big blind $0.02

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [8d Ah]
VILLAIN: raises $0.04 to $0.06
UTG+1: calls $0.06
3 Folds
HERO: calls $0.06
SB: folds
BB: calls $0.04

*** FLOP *** [3h As Kh]
BB: checks
VILLAIN: checks
UTG+1: checks
HERO: checks

*** TURN *** [3h As Kh] 8♣
SB: checks
VILLAIN: bets $0.10
UTG+1: folds
HERO: raises $0.14 to $0.24
SB: folds
VILLAIN: calls $0.14

*** RIVER *** [3h As Kh 8c] 4♥
VILLAIN: checks
HERO: bets $0.38
VILLAIN: calls $0.38

*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [8d Ah] (two pair, Aces and Eights)
VILLAIN: mucks hand
HERO collected $1.46 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.51 | Rake $0.05
Board [3h As Kh 8c 4h]
Seat 3: VILLAIN mucked [Ad Jd]

Since the VILLAIN was tight-ish and UTG I assumed he had a relatively strong hand. When he bet the turn and I reraised I think I can rule out AK from his range (top two pair) as I believe he would either a). 3 bet b). bet out the river. From this I think I can put him on TPGK or AQ-A9 or any kind of drawing hand like hearts.

However, since I hold the Ah (the blocker) I can bet the river for value, correct? Is this a reasonable play?

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I'd fold preflop, bet $.20 on the flop, and raise 2x as much as you did on the turn, and make the river bet slightly bigger. He will call more with any 2pr or better ace than you have (well had before the turn), and I don't think playing for fold equity against smaller flushes works well if you make it easy to call. Plus then your fold will be easy if he has the flush.

pocketehs said:

Yes, Jchoop that is what I mean. For instance, I had this hand this morning:

PokerStars Hand #85875888789: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/09/08 10:42:35 ET
Table 'Academia III' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: SB ($3.72 in chips)
Seat 2: BB ($6.07 in chips)
Seat 3: VILLAIN ($2.34 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+1 ($1.28 in chips)
Seat 5: MP ($2.02 in chips)
Seat 6: HJ ($2.05 in chips)
Seat 7: CO ($1.60 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO ($2.15 in chips)


SB: posts small blind $0.01
BB: posts big blind $0.02
UTG+1: posts big blind $0.02

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [8d Ah]
VILLAIN: raises $0.04 to $0.06
UTG+1: calls $0.06
3 Folds
HERO: calls $0.06
SB: folds
BB: calls $0.04

*** FLOP *** [3h As Kh]
BB: checks
VILLAIN: checks
UTG+1: checks
HERO: checks

*** TURN *** [3h As Kh] <font color='black'>8♣</font>
SB: checks
VILLAIN: bets $0.10
UTG+1: folds
HERO: raises $0.14 to $0.24
SB: folds
VILLAIN: calls $0.14

*** RIVER *** [3h As Kh 8c] <font color='red'>4♥</font>
VILLAIN: checks
HERO: bets $0.38
VILLAIN: calls $0.38

*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [8d Ah] (two pair, Aces and Eights)
VILLAIN: mucks hand
HERO collected $1.46 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.51 | Rake $0.05
Board [3h As Kh 8c 4h]
Seat 3: VILLAIN mucked [Ad Jd]

Since the VILLAIN was tight-ish and UTG I assumed he had a relatively strong hand. When he bet the turn and I reraised I think I can rule out AK from his range (top two pair) as I believe he would either a). 3 bet b). bet out the river. From this I think I can put him on TPGK or AQ-A9 or any kind of drawing hand like hearts.

However, since I hold the Ah (the blocker) I can bet the river for value, correct? Is this a reasonable play?

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again, this is going to be hard to accurately comment on because you havent provided stats on villain (im therefore going to go ahead and assume you dont use a HUD, in which case get one asap).
when you say villain was tight'ish, that doesnt give insight as to his postflop tenancies.. is he weaktight or tight aggressive? this matters significantly as 99% of players at 2NL are bad, and lots will check/call with flushdraws. for example, if i was posting this hand, id list for opponent;
-vpip
-pfr
-his pfr relative to the position he opened from (so UTG here i think)
-his flop Cbet stat

if villain is generally aggressive, you can rule out ALL flushes, regardless of the fact that you have a blocker. this is because a villain of this nature is always going to bet his flushdraw OTF.

as far as playing the hand goes, you recognise that villain probably has a strong hand because he raised from EP, so why are you calling with A8o? think about the kind of hands he opens from EP. obv i can only speculate, but if hes tight, its not unreasonable to assume hes only opening 99+ ATs+, AQo+ and maybe like KQs (although im not an FR player, and these opening ranges are actually pretty loose from UTG, id guess that theyd be pretty standard for 2NL players. nobody at 2NL is folding ATs/AJs UTG even though they should).
But even though ive given villain a super loose UTG opening range, A8o is still dominated, so we simply fold it pre. i just stoved it, and youre like 25% to win the hand based on the opening range i assigned him.

as played, bet the flop. you have top pair, and board is drawy. you want to devalue your opponents and charge them to draw out on you, not show them free cards. definitely raise the turn like you did. i like the sizing there. and as ive already explained, villain almost never has a flush on that river. i hope he didnt show up with one there so i dont get flamed, as i havent looked at results- just for future reference though, when you post a hand for analysis, delete the results so people cant see them as the results of the hand will inevitably bias the analysis people are going to give

BigCountryAA said:

That makes total sense. I understand what he was talking about now. Thanks that actually gave me some insight as well.

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glad to help out

BigCountryAA said:

No problem. I don't think I'd have any better read on this then Jchoop. He's one of the better cash players I've seen on this site and is definitely smarter then I am on the subject.

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oh you

jchoop said:

if villain is generally aggressive, you can rule out ALL flushes, regardless of the fact that you have a blocker. this is because a villain of this nature is always going to bet his flushdraw OTF.

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Has 2nl gotten this much better since I played it?

cAPSLOCK said:

Has 2nl gotten this much better since I played it?

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i doubt its any different tbh, but you still arent ever going to get a tight player check calling a flushdraw after opening preflop? are you for real lol

Donking A8 on AKx board vs. EP raiser seems suicidal. Having it check through and getting a heart to show up on the turn would be far from the worst thing in the world. Don't call offsuit Aces worse than AQ OOP.

Thanks everyone for the help. I see how calling on the button with A8o is pretty insane.

@Jchoop - just got PT so next time I will throw in the stats for the hand analysis as well.

yea its just.....saying if the cards the player played were suited....then the board comes out wet with clubs then hands like ac8 o.....on a 3c8d7c2c.....tptk with ac