Hand protection

I've heard and read about protecting your hand, but I don't really understand it (apart from I suppose thinning the field PF - 3betting QQ, for example, is a good idea, especially against more than one opponent).

Anyway, let's say we are up against someone who completed the SB and we checked with 32o. Flop comes K23ssh. I've heard someone saying they're not married to their bottom 2 pair but they'll bet to 'protect' their hand.

Surely anyone who has a OESD or a FD will continue. Betting here doesn't protect your hand, surely it simply charges to draw. That is to say it's a vbet with a need to reassess at the turn and river.

I suppose my question is, when is a protection bet NOT a vbet?

It's a good thing Jay compiled a list for me to find these things.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/why-you-betting-189182/

So there's no such thing as a hand protection bet?

I'm drunk so excuse me.

There are 3 reasons to bet. For value, as a bluff and for protection.

Pre-flop you will only ever bet/3bet for value or as a bluff. It is only post flop that protection becomes relevant. Often value and protection are mixed together but not always.

Say you raise JT OTB and are called in the BB. The flop comes 6T7. In this spot you will bet for value because you have top pair, but at the same time you are betting to protect your hand because hands like QJ, KJ, KQ still have a lot of equity against you.

Betting to protect your hand only happens post flop and it's used to protect a hand that is probably best but still has significant outs against it.

I'm a go to sleep now.

Cafeman31 said:

I suppose my question is, when is a protection bet NOT a vbet?

Click to expand...

LuckyChippy said:

There are 3 reasons to bet. For value, as a bluff and for protection.

Say you raise JT OTB and are called in the BB. The flop comes 6T7. In this spot you will bet for value because you have top pair, but at the same time you are betting to protect your hand because hands like QJ, KJ, KQ still have a lot of equity against you.

Betting to protect your hand only happens post flop and it's used to protect a hand that is probably best but still has significant outs against it.

Click to expand...

OK, so I pokerstoved JTo vs KJs+,QJs,KJ+,QJo with that board of 6T7, and JTo has close to 80% equity against that specific range. So, surely our bet is a vbet in this case.

That's why value bet and a protection bet are often mixed together, we have to have something of value to protect it. It might have been a bad example but the basic idea is still the same, if we have a hand that is probably best but villain has a hand that has equity against us and a bet is not necessarily for value and it's not as a bluff then it should be for protection. A better example might be betting the flop in the above example knowing you'll get floated quite often by overcards and then betting the turn even knowing he will just fold, because there's no value in checking and letting him maybe hit the river, even though he has like 10% against equity you. The bet is not for value or as a bluff but it is protecting your equity share of the pot.

Ummm, so maybe I just don't understand what a value bet is then

I thought a value bet is a bet made when we think we have the best hand. We WANT people with worse hands to call (float, missclick, etc.) don't we?

Maybe it's just semantics, but I still can't see what's being 'protected' by betting when we, with our awesome hand reading skills, think we're ahead.

I just read the post linked to above and ChuckTs mentions just 3 reasons for betting:-

1) Value
2) Bluff
3) Collecting dead money.

Would you be kind enough to give me an example that demonstrates a protection bet (that isn't simply a value bet)?

Protection is very similar to collecting dead money, if you read that article a lot of the things I'm saying are the same for collecting dead money.

You can't protect your hand if you don't have the best hand, surely you understand that? That's why betting to protect a hand must always be a value bet.

LuckyChippy said:

betting to protect a hand must always be a value bet.

Click to expand...

Is what I thought, thanks.

Stu is the guy to talk to about this, I posted a thread a while back where this idea was discussed:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/why-why-why-my-belated-1k-188684/

i think the difference comes in when you consider the texture of the board...in the example you gave, you have to protect against the flush draw while still getting some value out of ur 2pair...u have to bet enough where its unlikely that he'd call with the spade draw, so you can be sure he's holding a king (thus not the flush) if another spade does come out...in essence the only time a value bet can afford not to be a protection bet is when you have or are drawing to the absolute nuts...otherwise you have to make them a little heavier (thus less 'valuable') in order to protect your hand, which is more important, i think, than getting value (cuz wat good is value if you lose the hand in the end?)

You want him to call with spades draws if you bet an amount which it is not profitable for him to call when chasing his flush.

why? that just makes it that much more frustrating if they catch it...if u want him to call then make it worth calling

Because in the long run, you will make money. The bigger the bet he calls, the more money you make from him. He'll hit it every now and then, but you get more money when he calls and misses than when he folds, and he doesn't hit very often.