Gulf in class: 0.05/0.10 vs 0.10/0.25

So recently as I am free for a few months, I've decided to really knuckle down on poker. Playing 6 tables of 6-max with PT4 as I have a tiny screen and it feels comfortable (except when trying to make notes). I am rolled for $0.10/$0.25 stakes NLH and every single session, for the first time in my poker life, I felt completely helpless:

-There were TAG players EVERYWHERE
-There was next to ZERO value on ANY hands
-At times, I felt completely outplayed and as though I was the weak link on the table.

I ended down $95 after 5,835 hands. I looked back at my hand histories after each session and picked out one or two hands per session where I made stupid mistakes. Is the margin for profit at these stakes really that high?

Today I went back down to $0.05/$0.10 to settle down a bit and prevent myself bursting into tears and giving up on poker. I played 1,637 hands and made a profit of around $35. I even lost with Aces vs Kings and Kings vs Queens! I feel like I made very little mistakes and the ones I did make I paid for.

So the question is:
Does 25NL have a much higher quality playing field than 10NL?
(I play on pokerstars)

I think Pokerstars is a dreadful option for most microstakes players.

The environment you describe is exactly why I think it's a dreadful option.

The simple fact that the software makes it so easy for players from the not so wealthy countries to be able to make a living at $25nl is what makes the games so terrible.

I wrote an article about this a little while ago that you might find interesting. Ignore the video at the top, I have no idea why the guy that runs the site put it there as it's not one of my best pieces of work

http://www.microgrinder.com/poker-strategy/poker-site-and-table-selection-poker-strategy/

Seriously consider moving sites. My two recommendations would be either unibet or 888 right now.

I played Unibet and the field was sooo weak I was in almost constant profit, but the lack of a proper multi-table option and HUD compatibility turns me off. I keep hearing 888 being recommended so maybe I will check it out, however if I can still find decent tables like yesterday at 10NL then I may stick with stars.

Multi-tabling is getting easier at Unibet and I also believe that Holdem Indicator works there.

Playing €25nl on a site that isn't as slick but in games that are way, way softer than $10nl on stars seems like an easy switch to make for me.

So last week I moved up to 25NL, and it's been a pretty horrible week for me. I've played 20k hands of 25NL over the past 7 days and my winrate is -5ptbb/100, whereas I beat 10NL for 7.5ptbb/100 over 25k hands. I definitely feel I've been running pretty bad at 25NL, but I obviously still have some pretty major leaks. I've looked at my Pokertracker stats for just about everything, and I can't see that I'm doing much different at 25NL than I did at 10NL (which might be a problem itself). definitely play on nl25 differ not only win rate and money. gl of the table)

25k hand samples aren't enough to make any firm judgements on whether we are a winning or losing player.

Trying to bash out 25k hands in a week when we're not sure we're a winning player yet doesn't seem like a good idea either.

Way too many players value volume > everything else and it's not a healthy mindset.

I understand how in countries where making $7ph from poker + rakeback seems like you're living the dream but long term it's terrible for the poker economy, which means it's going to be terrible for you as a small winning player, mass tabling yourself to dust.

When you move up, give yourself a good chance of success. Cut the number of tables you play by a significant number to begin with, take your time more over your decisions, cut out some of the marginal hands until you're feeling more secure in your new game.

It also might be that you do have some leaks that weren't being exposed at 10nl, so find someone who knows what they're looking for to take a look at your database with you.

online poker is hard. Many people think it's enough to just learn to play TAG pre flop and then propel themselves to glory by playing 1200+ hph. There is way more to it than that and the players that understand this are the ones that leave the microstakes behind.

individualequal said:

So the question is:

Does 25NL have a much higher quality playing field than 10NL?

(I play on pokerstars)

Click to expand...

The answer is yes, but not enough for you to worry about. There are a lot of players that made there way up from .05/.10 and anyone who can survive that meat grinder is bound to be a cut above. But I wouldn't worry about that too much. Spend some time playing 2-4 tables and get to know the field. I wouldn't get too carried away taking a lot of notes. They often do more harm then good. Instead just spend some time color coding the players at your table. Even if you just use 2 colors, one for GOOD and another for BAD . Then just avoid the GOOD ones without good hands. If you won at .10 you'll do fine at .25.

Skill levels difference in strength:
2NL << 5NL/10NL (pretty much the same) <<< 25NL < 50NL

Fish are stupid on any level but quantity and quality of regs differs a lot.

2NL "regs" are basically tight/super tight fish or beginning players who are building their bankrolls to move up to 5NL etc.

The biggest jump is from 10NL to 25NL.

I can't talk about 50NL+ levels since I don't play them.

So having lost roughly £150 at $25 and a further £60 at $10NL, not really understanding the level of difficulty I found myself confronting, I moved to Unibet with 100 euros (£71) and have turned that into 414 euros in two weeks, having moved up from 4 euro NL to 10 euro NL pretty quickly.

The lack of HUD means all players are without it and my edge is my actual ability rather than basing decisions off of statistical analysis and the player field is so weak it is unreal.

So thanks Regigrinder. You saved my bankroll and a dream of mine!

Don't play in a harder player pool just because you can use a toy you bought. Go where you can make money because in the end that is what is all about. Game selection is also a skill.

I have been grinding 25 nl FR on Stars for nearly a year and at the end of 2014 my review showed I was beating the level at 7.8 bb/100. I have thousands of hands on most of the regs... so is it a big step up...yes it is but I have noticed that 10nl is also now totally reg infested as well. I have also noticed nova players starting to appear as well which was totally unseen last year.
If you want an easier game just purely to boost your bankroll then play elsewhere. When I do play on 888 & others it is much softer.
My profit levels are only maintained by strict table selection and bumhunting. I simply don't sit at a table of regs. Against the regs you need to be very sound preflop and have anti steal lines and a decent 4 bet bluffing game.
Squeezing is very common so much so that if there are regs on the button or blinds it's worth flatting your premiums regularly.
I play this level on stars as a temporary training ground. I know when I can beat it regularly I can step up with confidence. I will be moving into the 25nl 6 max arena more over the next few months to test myself there.