Gradually becoming unable to call raises preflop?

NineLions · Dec 7, 2007

Lately I've noticed that I'm becoming unable to call raises preflop. The only situations I'm calling lately are when I've got medium pairs or suited middle connectors, and even then I need more than one person in the pot besides the raiser and myself, or the likelihood that there will end up being more than one.

Maybe this is a standard evolutionary/developmental process?

Instead, I find myself looking at my cards, the position/reads on the player, and thinking, is this good enough to repop? If so, I 3-bet. If not, I fold.

Anyone else been thru this stage?

dj11 · Dec 7, 2007

NineLions said:
Lately I've noticed that I'm becoming unable to call raises preflop. The only situations I'm calling lately are when I've got medium pairs or suited middle connectors, and even then I need more than one person in the pot besides the raiser and myself, or the likelihood that there will end up being more than one.

Maybe this is a standard evolutionary/developmental process?

Instead, I find myself looking at my cards, the position/reads on the player, and thinking, is this good enough to repop? If so, I 3-bet. If not, I fold.

Anyone else been thru this stage?

I have noticed this mindset creeping into my thinking.

Dogday · Dec 7, 2007

Sounds to me like your evolving into a smarter player. Your holding middle pair and someone else raises while you in late postion usually gives away two thing's: they are holding pocket pair's and trying to push limper's out usually 8's or better or they have overcards. Just sounds like your assessing (spelling) the information they so willingly give you.

And yes i've noticed my play getting extremely tighter and tighter when i play SNG's about 15-20% (and that's running "hot") of hands played; doesn't included the steals of course.

rob5775 · Dec 7, 2007

dj11 said:
I have noticed this mindset creeping into my thinking.

My cold calling habits have steadily decreased the longer I play. It is one of those leaks that PT has helped me overcome. If I'm tempted to call then I will usually reraise. It helps define villains hand and gives me the lead in betting... well, usually, unless villain shoves.

NineLions · Dec 7, 2007

The scary thing about 3-betting with only AK/AQ/QQ/JJ is that you represent a big hand and are building a big pot, but may still need to fold to a 4-bet, or may miss the flop.

But alternatively it's scary to call a 3-bet. And if someone cheerfully calls, then you have a narrow idea of what kind of hand they might have.

I'm happily throwing away AJ/AT/KQ from all kinds of positions nowadays, depending on the situation and reads.

jeffred1111 · Dec 7, 2007

It depends how deep you play. If you're palying standard 100bb poker, I feel it's probably a good thing unless you evolve into a total nit and can't just call with KQ on the button after a raise in the hijack. Losing your button a lot because you fold to a late raise or always three bet can lead you to always play for stacks wich isn't always our goal and reduce your time in position wich is where we make most of our money. I see this in LHE a lot, where nits will fold their button to a late raise or even open fold and they're losing tons of value this way because a lot fo their hands have them in MP or in the blinds where they don't have position.

If you're playing 60bb or less, I applaud you. If you're playing 300bb or deeper, you're probably missing on some value.

NineLions · Dec 7, 2007

jeffred1111 said:
It depends how deep you play. If you're palying standard 100bb poker, I feel it's probably a good thing unless you evolve into a total nit and can't just call with KQ on the button after a raise in the hijack. Losing your button a lot because you fold to a late raise or always three bet can lead you to always play for stacks wich isn't always our goal and reduce your time in position wich is where we make most of our money. I see this in LHE a lot, where nits will fold their button to a late raise or even open fold and they're losing tons of value this way because a lot fo their hands have them in MP or in the blinds where they don't have position.

If you're playing 60bb or less, I applaud you. If you're playing 300bb or deeper, you're probably missing on some value.

Good point about stack size. It really applies with standard SnGs stack sizes, but having something to draw with against big stack vrs big stack is always a consideration.

Last night paid the BB early (I know, not a recommended play but I'll do it sometimes when I sit down in the blinds) so I'm in the cutoff. Pot raise from mid, called by the next player, I've got K8s so I call because of the drawing possibilities and two players already in. One of the blinds joined the fun as well.

Flop the nut flush; AQ6 or something like that of my suit. Fortunately, or unfortunately, 1st caller pots the flop, so all I can do is call, hoping something comes that encourages him further since I know my call is going to scare him. Eventually make a small value bet on the river that he calls with his AK.

jeffred1111 · Dec 8, 2007

Good point about stack size. It really applies with standard SnGs stack sizes, but having something to draw with against big stack vrs big stack is always a consideration.

Last night paid the BB early (I know, not a recommended play but I'll do it sometimes when I sit down in the blinds) so I'm in the cutoff. Pot raise from mid, called by the next player, I've got K8s so I call because of the drawing possibilities and two players already in. One of the blinds joined the fun as well.

Flop the nut flush; AQ6 or something like that of my suit. Fortunately, or unfortunately, 1st caller pots the flop, so all I can do is call, hoping something comes that encourages him further since I know my call is going to scare him. Eventually make a small value bet on the river that he calls with his AK.

Why not raise this flop for value ? We know he paired his ace and most people will be more prone to call this flop raise than a turn/bet UI. Plus, we might project the image of someone who is trying to steal the pot and not someone who is sanbagging a monster.

Hijack over.

DaFrench1 · Dec 8, 2007

NineLions said:
Lately I've noticed that I'm becoming unable to call raises preflop. The only situations I'm calling lately are when I've got medium pairs or suited middle connectors, and even then I need more than one person in the pot besides the raiser and myself, or the likelihood that there will end up being more than one.

Maybe this is a standard evolutionary/developmental process?

Instead, I find myself looking at my cards, the position/reads on the player, and thinking, is this good enough to repop? If so, I 3-bet. If not, I fold.

Anyone else been thru this stage?

dj11 said:
I have noticed this mindset creeping into my thinking.

So are you seeing this as a good thing or bad thing?

NineLions · Dec 8, 2007

DaFrench1 said:
So are you seeing this as a good thing or bad thing?

I see it as a good thing, since it's coming from watching videos of better players than I. Guys with V4P$IP of 19 with PRF of 16 at 9 max tables, playing at higher buyins that I play, or testing their play at similar levels to what I play and being successful (which is not always the case when I've seen high stakes players trying to demonstrate how they would play micro levels).

I'm not playing with those kind of stats, but I think I'm completing (successfully, according to PT) from the SB a lot more than they do because there's also value limping into limped pots when the pot odds are good.

NineLions · Dec 8, 2007

jeffred1111 said:
Why not raise this flop for value ? We know he paired his ace and most people will be more prone to call this flop raise than a turn/bet UI. Plus, we might project the image of someone who is trying to steal the pot and not someone who is sanbagging a monster.

Hijack over.

My guess was that he was afraid of a flush which is why he pot the flop. I figured a raise was going to confirm that I had one and would kill the action, so I hoped that either the turn/river would help him some more, or, by the time it got to the river, since I hadn't bet, he might call a small bet on the chance that I was a donk that called with a weaker ace and figured I was ahead. The only thing I had to worry about was if the board paired and he hit a boat, but I thought I'd walk that line in hopes of collecting a bit more with the river bet.

Hijack over again.

jeffred1111 · Dec 8, 2007

I'm not playing with those kind of stats, but I think I'm completing (successfully, according to PT) from the SB a lot more than they do because there's also value limping into limped pots when the pot odds are good.

One of two things:
a) Their pots almost never get limped around so their % of time they complete in the SB must go down.
b) They realize that sometimes, even when you're looking at 8:1 on your money, limping that 57s is giving away reverse implied odds.

Maybe I'm just a nit, but I find it baffling that many consider that completing in SB with QTo because there' 4 limpers in front is a good play: reverse implied odds people. Not everytime we hit, we hit the winner and we need to take this in consideration. Plus, the hands will necessarily be harder to play since you'll be OOP against a huge field.

jeffred1111 · Dec 8, 2007

And depending ont the reads I have on you, once you call that flop bet, I'm shutting down since you don't look afraid of the flush and are willing to invest mucho dineros to go to SD. Raising here actually makes your hand seem more vulnerable.

NineLions · Dec 8, 2007

jeffred1111 said:
One of two things:
a) Their pots almost never get limped around so their % of time they complete in the SB must go down.
b) They realize that sometimes, even when you're looking at 8:1 on your money, limping that 57s is giving away reverse implied odds.

Maybe I'm just a nit, but I find it baffling that many consider that completing in SB with QTo because there' 4 limpers in front is a good play: reverse implied odds people. Not everytime we hit, we hit the winner and we need to take this in consideration. Plus, the hands will necessarily be harder to play since you'll be OOP against a huge field.

No disagreement from me on any of those statements.

But to some degree there is a consideration of the level of competition at levels where a lot of limping goes on. It's quite possible to outplay the competition on the flop and beyond in spite of the potentially dominated hand and being out of position.

At least, that's the theory I like when PT says the SB is one of my most winning positions even before adjusting for the cost of the blinds.

royalburrito24 · Dec 8, 2007

NineLions said:
I'm happily throwing away AJ/AT/KQ from all kinds of positions nowadays, depending on the situation and reads.

I think folding these hands is the transition from a good freeroll player and good play money player into becoming a good real money player.

Play money or freerolls I play any 2 paint cards....

In real money I have learned that tight, for the most part, is the best way for me to play

If I ever have the urge to play these crap cards, I do a freeroll or a play money game...

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Gradually becoming unable to call raises preflop?

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