Good tournament player, but SUCK at cash games.

Z

ZNT746

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The title says it all....

I've been playing NLHE for about 2-3 years and I've always played tournaments, and have been successful in them. I started out playing play money, and my results were very good, I placed first in 100-200 player MTT's more times than I can remember. Lately I have been playing small stakes real money and have been having pretty much the same results as in play money.

So basically I understand most of the fundamentals to poker, I feel like I have pretty good online "reading" skills against most small stakes players, etc. BUT when I play micro-stakes cash games ($.02-$.04) I hardly ever make a profit.

I'm very aware that tournaments and cash games require a different style of playing, and I thought I sort of knew what those differences were, but my results tell me otherwise.

I was just wondering if anyone had any insight on this, and could explain the key differences between the two, or if you just have any tips on cash games I'd appreciate your input. Thanks
 
fletchdad

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First 2 key points.
1. Tourney = strong pre flop play
2. Cash = strong post flop play.

You have so many different nuances. No blind increase. rebuy anytime. People playing relatively short on purpose (bastards).

This is a good read, https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/ and books will help.

On tip I can give right off is PLAN YOUR HAND. When you bet pre, decide always what you will do in every case. Say you have AK and you raise 3x in EP. You know that if the button calls you will bet the flop no matter what and try to get it in against him You know that if the SB calls you will proceed carefully on the flop. This is so vague, I know, but I hope you see where I am going with this. If you dont have any info on opponents, then your cards and the flop/turn/river + action will help you decide what to do. If you do have opponent info, plan ahead what you will do vs action from each individual opponent.

Folding is almost never bad if you are unsure........at first..... Tight is right.... at first.
 
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sryImPro

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I had a problem like that,i spent so money at the cash tables so my br was dead for a whole month.Now,i'm back with tournaments and i'm doing just fine...I'm just not a cash game type of guy...
 
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PotluckXXI

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Cash is a marathon, tourny is a sprint. Position and starting hands matter more in cash, "tough folds" in tourny is tough, in cash is pretty easy.
 
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dlam

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The mindset is very different in terms of strategy . I like tournaments but found that I cash games was more convinent as I can come and leave as I please
I think the biggest difference (among other thing) is adjusting and managing the increasing blinds during tourn play
For cash games, I agree that post flop action happens much more and requires a skill that does not occur as much in tournament play
I think having a deep stack in a tournament can employ similar strategy in cash game
 
JusSumguy

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I'm very aware that tournaments and cash games require a different style of playing,

Try to describe your current style. HH's really help. Unless you want generic responses.

Just bet. Everybody always misses anyway. ~ Gavin Smith


-
 
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dlam

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In tournament play I feel I have to adopt different strategy depending on my stack size
In a cash game I can stay deep stacked
 
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baudib1

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don't stack off as light as you do in tournaments.

against nits overpairs are a standard b/f on the flop.

try 6-max instead of FR, FR nits are the worst.\
 
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ZNT746

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Thanks guys, I've actually been winning at cash games since after posting this and taking some of your guys' advice. For people having the same problem, here are a few things that helped me.

In 9 max games, tighten up preflop, especially in early position.
In tournaments the blinds go up so action is kind of forced on you and I was used to that so I was playing way too many hands. (The comment about tourneys being sprints and cash games being marathons is very true)
Playing 3 or 4 games at once really helped me with this because I just lose my patience playing just 1 game and will usually end up making dumb moves.

For me, it's been profitable in most games to play aggressive preflop in late position (OTB,CO) because most players' preflop ranges are so tight, I pick up the blinds quite a bit. In some games this can be a bad idea.

Also against certain players, 3-betting light has been profitable. This doesn't work in tourneys as well because most small buy-in tourney players HATE folding, but most micro-stakes cash game players are pretty tight and will raise-fold hands like AJo KJo KQo small PP's....a decently wide range. Note that there are only a few scenarios where I 3-bet light and it comes from a general feel of the table and the original raiser's tendencies, etc.

Also like someone said, making big folds is much easier in cash games, because in tourneys you only get so many opportunities to increase your stack before the blinds go up, and you never want to fold and be left short-stacked. In cash games you can just buy more chips and try again later.

There are probably a lot more differences I haven't addressed yet but I'm definitely getting better. And I'm glad because the variance of MTT's was really starting to get to me. It just seems like all the bad players love the GTD prize pool and the idea that they can't lose more than the buy-in. It's sort of a love/hate relationship with them lol. They can be the reason you got knocked out because they called off 90% of their stack preflop with QTo to flop a straight...or they can be the reason you were able to chip up easily throughout the tournament and get first place. I guess it all depends on the cards. I do still love tourneys though, it's more exciting with the blind levels increasing, people getting knocked out, the big prizes at the end, etc. You're always on edge. Cash games (micro-stakes)you just sort of sit back and try to make a decent profit. Both are good times.

Good luck to all.

:canabis:
 
Egon Towst

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Cash games are harder man

That`s very debatable. I suspect that you don`t understand the nuances of tournament play, if you feel able to make such a bald statement without any form of explanation or justification.
 
ajei

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A big difference is that in tournaments you will find a lot of short stacks as the tournament advances while in a cash game most of the stacks will probably be deep, so while in a tourney you are very confortable getting in with 10-15 BB with AK pre-flop, doing the same in a 100BB deep cash game might not be so profitable.
 
ajei

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Not harder just different, while on a cash game you could actually wait for big hands (not saying it would be profitable in the long run) you cant do that on a tournament becasue of the blinds increase.

Cash games are harder man
 
micromachine

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im sad it took me 2 weeks to win 5 dollars in free roll tourneys and i lost it all in one day in cash games.. sigh..

That is sad :(:(

Why not deposit a bit to get you going?
 
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Just remember in cash games there is virtually (blinds still) no pressure to jump in unlike tourney play so don't worry too much about folding if you're unsure.
 
taaron

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Cash is confirmed harder and more challenging than mtt's in general.

The amount of study involved and hand volume needed to learn and beat any level of cash is tremendous. For every 1 hour of play i am studying at least 1.5-2 hrs; reviewing hands (HA-hand analysis), stat-leak checks, reading (quality material) and note taking.

Having the singular mindset of wanting to make money is not the same mindset that good cash game ppl have; its TOTALLY about beating a particular level. Its about the long term, and improving your game to its max potential,
well and also having fun too, but its fun to improve; get better.

So often horrible players bink, due to the structure and nature of tourneys. There ia a lot more dedication and discipline needed to be good at cash. However variance in Mtt's is much greater. (alex;) ).

if you want to become good at cash, understand that you need to study alot.
 
Egon Towst

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Cash is confirmed harder and more challenging than mtt's in general.

Confirmed by whom ?

So often horrible players bink, due to the structure and nature of tourneys. There ia a lot more dedication and discipline needed to be good at cash.
Sweeping generalisation alert. :eek:

That may be true of online tournaments at $2 buyin, but surely a four day live main event at $1000+ buyin requires dedication and discipline and is most unlikely to be won by a horrible player ?
 
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There are more bad players in tourneys which makes them easier to beat..
 
Jurn8

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That`s very debatable. I suspect that you don`t understand the nuances of tournament play, if you feel able to make such a bald statement without any form of explanation or justification.

lol
 
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freshsmithprince

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GOTTA TIGHTEN UP SIGNIFIGANTLY IN CASH GAMES THE RAKE AND TOAKES EAT U ALIVE.... Plus in cash games there is alot more time to sit around and wait for some donko to pay u off when u hold premium hands.
 
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That`s very debatable. I suspect that you don`t understand the nuances of tournament play, if you feel able to make such a bald statement without any form of explanation or justification.

Egon. You are a smart guy. We know this. We also know you play tournaments and that you will defend that but you have to acknowledge that it is widely considered throughout the poker community that cash games are the much more intricate and much more complicated/ more difficult a game.

Tournaments, you have less than 10bb so often and we are playing shove and fold for the rest of the game.
 
Shwiggler

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Cash is confirmed harder and more challenging than mtt's in general.

I have to agree with this. Gathering and processing more information in cash is essential. That's why it baffles me when I hear of people playing cash without a HUD.
 
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SubtractUrStack

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I'm pretty bad at cash games as well. Sit n go's are more my thing. Would love to get better at cash play. Just have to put in the time I guess. :) BTW, I really like the sprint/marathon analogy! Makes sense.
 
dj11

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If all u cash guys are so much better than the tourney guys, because the cash game is harder, and you are still playing cash (assumes you must be winners) why are you not playing tourney's and cleaning up?:confused::confused::confused:

I will agree they are played different, and then I'm with Egon.
 
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Marginal

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If all u cash guys are so much better than the tourney guys, because the cash game is harder, and you are still playing cash (assumes you must be winners) why are you not playing tourney's and cleaning up?:confused::confused::confused:

I will agree they are played different, and then I'm with Egon.

DJ do you win at tournaments?
 
Egon Towst

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Tournaments, you have less than 10bb so often and we are playing shove and fold for the rest of the game.

That`s largely true if we are talking about a CC freeroll, but there is a whole other world out there which is nothing like that.

Of course I know that the majority of those posting here will be mostly familiar with, and thinking in terms of, online low stakes donkaments, but there is a lot more to tournament play than is found at that level. Once you have played in tourneys that start 400 Big Blinds deep and play for days, under the pressure of spectators and press photographers looking on, you`re never likely to accept that grinding a dull ring game is a superior challenge.
 
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