good line for nut FD/SD + overs OOP?

JCgrind

JCgrind

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I thought about this line today and was wondering if its a plausible one. Havent thought of it before and i quite liked it, was wondering if people use it/think its valid.

It involved flatting an open pre, flopping say a nut flushdraw with at least 1, preferably 2 overs OOP, check raising the flop, then if the turn bricks, checking with the intention to check/shove. The idea behind this being that you look super strong with this line, have decent equity a lot of the time when called, and it gives you an opportunity to hit a free river. I feel like lots of aggressive opponents who flat your c/r are going to put you on a draw when you c/r flop and then check turn, and consequently, you will induce a lot of bets from marginal holdings- which wont be able to call a ch/shove on the turn. Thoughts?

also, is this a plausible line at 10/25NL? obv dependent upon a villain who knows how to fold.
 
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Poker_play

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Interesting thought. I don't think I like it vs good players though.

Ch/Raise flop is standard, shows strength.

Check on turn is interesting. I don't think Ch/R is effective on consecutive streets--you've already shown strength, so when you check they won't jump on it as a sign of weakness IMO anymore..or not often enough to make this an optimal line. I think more often then not you'll have good villains a) check behind, b) bet to induce or c) bet and then herocall. In any of those cases, this line is less effective than others IMO.

I debate between flat flop, Ch/R turn or Ch/R flop, lead turn big to maximize fold equity.

Very villain dependant though so your line may be very good vs aggro, lower limit players who think street by street. "he checked turn? must have been bluffing on flop. wait what?? fold"
 
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baudib1

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Depends on stack sizes really but going for a double check-raise is pretty damn iffy. Most players are going to check back medium strength hands. If you're going to check-raise the turn, which in general is not a line I really like, I'd rather do it after flatting the flop.

Mostly I would just bet and if you want to bluff rivers, I'd bet the turn instead of risking it checking through.
 
Arjonius

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Think about it from the opponent's perspective, not just yours. What type of player does he have to be, plus what range of hands does he have to hold in order to call (but not re-pop) your flop c/r, and then bet again when you check the turn? Plus having done this, he still has to fold when you shove. This looks like a line for a very specific situation.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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Interesting thought. I don't think I like it vs good players though.

Ch/Raise flop is standard, shows strength.

Check on turn is interesting. I don't think Ch/R is effective on consecutive streets--you've already shown strength, so when you check they won't jump on it as a sign of weakness IMO anymore..or not often enough to make this an optimal line. I think more often then not you'll have good villains a) check behind, b) bet to induce or c) bet and then herocall. In any of those cases, this line is less effective than others IMO.

I debate between flat flop, Ch/R turn or Ch/R flop, lead turn big to maximize fold equity.

Very villain dependant though so your line may be very good vs aggro, lower limit players who think street by street. "he checked turn? must have been bluffing on flop. wait what?? fold"

I guess im mostly playing lower limit aggro players? rofl at your villian 'thought process'. my usual line was c/r flop lead turn, but 100BB i kinda hate it lol. against the guys at micros TP is all about calling my check raise, so i kinda have no fold equity when i barrel the turn. if the river bricks, im left a big pot and not a big enough ESS to be able to push anyone off anything, let alone so many times when i check here, i get shoved on.

but like whats the alternative? if c/r flop i cant really check call turn. maybe ill try your flat flop, c/r turn. now that i think about it that does seem pretty fecking epic- plus it leaves me with enough to shove the river whether i make it or not and still have some fold equity...

Depends on stack sizes really but going for a double check-raise is pretty damn iffy. Most players are going to check back medium strength hands. If you're going to check-raise the turn, which in general is not a line I really like, I'd rather do it after flatting the flop.

yeah i think i agree with this

Mostly I would just bet and if you want to bluff rivers, I'd bet the turn instead of risking it checking through.

i dont really like this because flat flop donk turn doesnt really give me much fold eq if i want to bluff river

Think about it from the opponent's perspective, not just yours. What type of player does he have to be, plus what range of hands does he have to hold in order to call (but not re-pop) your flop c/r, and then bet again when you check the turn? Plus having done this, he still has to fold when you shove. This looks like a line for a very specific situation.

oh ive thought this through- one of the badlags that are common at micros. play lots of hands, hate folding to 3bets and love betting IP as soon as theyre checked to. again though, this is making me like flat flop c/r turn big a lot more.
 
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baudib1

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i dont really like this because flat flop donk turn doesnt really give me much fold eq if i want to bluff river

No, I mean I'd just fire turn/river after check-raising flop.

If you flatted flop then check-raising brick turns might be OK. But usually with this hand I'll be c-r flop for sure.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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No, I mean I'd just fire turn/river after check-raising flop.

If you flatted flop then check-raising brick turns might be OK. But usually with this hand I'll be c-r flop for sure.

oh right my bad. ye that sounds good ty
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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also question 2, if we get to the river after taking a line like the one above; 'No, I mean I'd just fire turn/river after check-raising flop', what are we doing if we bink one of our overcards for TP OTR, firing? broad question i know
 
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Poker_play

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Haha very broad question.

Depends on villain and what their action so far means (preflop stats, was their raise utg? Would they call a c/r and turn barrel with air, or is overpair much more likely?)

If you think they could have air a good % of the time, get to showdown as cheaply as possible. Whether that's check/hope for a check/call or a blocket bet depends on villain.

If you can say with good certainy that villain wouldn't call turn barrel without tp+..turn tp into a bluff, barrel again.

All villain dependant of course. If its a calling station that's not letting go of tp...let it go lol
 
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