Getting value out of big pocket pairs in 2NL, 4NL?

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Cymro

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So I was looking at my stats for hands in PT, I sorted them by how much I won with them, and while I made money on most of the AA-QQ hands I played, most of the big winners were suited connectors or middle-low pairs that I got lucky on the flop with.

So I'm wondering if there's any way I can squeeze more value out of these big starting hands. Specifically:

  • What's the best way to open from EP? If I bet too high everyone thinks you have QQ+, it effectively shuts everyone out of the hand and I just pick up the blinds, or if I bet too low it invites people to call with crazy hands that can beat AA if they get lucky.
  • How much should I 3-Bet a raised pot before the flop? Is it best to make a pot sized raise, or make it something smaller to invite more players to call or 4-bet?
  • What's the best way to play them post-flop? Your opponent may have easily made a set, and you're there betting into them. You get re-raised All-In by the other guy, do you want to call or has he got something that beats a pair?

My experience with these hands, and much of the advice I've seen is that it's best to get as much money in the pot pre-flop and to never slow play, but this is really difficult in 2NL because very few players will raise pre-flop, let alone 3-Bet you, even with a decent hand. The problem is that if you try and get it in on the flop, the only people calling are fish who assume you're bluffing them, or someone who's possibly made a bigger hand.
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

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At work and don't have time to get to all of this. For now I will just say that at stakes this low.... You can open to 3x BB with your monsters. When you want value don't slow down. Bet bet bet, let calling station donkey fish call you down. I personally will go 1/2-2/3 pot on a street where I'm looking for Value. In special cases with big donks, I will go up to pot size. Will be back later if you have any questions and further specifics you would like answered. As for 3bet sizing with a monster.... I like 2.5-3x the initial raise.


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LD1977

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I played premiums by raising 3x-5x from EP (depending on the table/game) and then betting strongly (3/4 pot - pot).

People call down too much and yeah there are suckouts but it is pretty hard to outdraw Aces before they run out of time (depends on stack sizes). They can outflop you though.

- Usually shoving vs. a raise on the flop where there is a flush draw is OK, people love raising or even shoving those.
- Check his AF, low AF = he is not bluffing often.
- If you know he autobets every check or his AF is high, chkraising flop sometimes is a good way to tilt fish and make them reshove or spite call flop chkraise AND turn shove.
 
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jsh169

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You should never differentiate your raise sizes based on your hands strength, while it may work at the lower limits, you will be so easily readable at higher ones.
 
suby_rafael

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This is where a LAG or loose aggressive table image benefits and you will get more value out of your premium hands if you are more active on the table. You will get paid most times because of this image you built.
On the other hand if you have a tight image then you have to adjust accordingly. If you decide to open from early position them make it a standard raise or else players will get a sniff. On the other hand if the players in the table are aggressive you should try and limp a few times pre flop hoping some aggressive player raises so that you can come over the top. If you get multiple callers then it becomes tricky, here you have to trust your instincts - if they tell you are beat then have the courage to lay your hand down. If you think it is good then go with it.:rolleyes:
 
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Cymro

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You should never differentiate your raise sizes based on your hands strength, while it may work at the lower limits, you will be so easily readable at higher ones.

This is true, but being easy to read can actually be an advantage in microstakes; most the people you're playing against are only thinking about what they're holding vs. the price to call, not what you're holding, and many will call to showdown with bottom pair or Ace high regardless of what you bet.

The problem with this is that the other players can be really hard to read. If someone check-calls every street, it's impossible to put them on a hand, which is why I want to try to scare off players with weird hands before the flop.
 
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Tgen

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1. raise them x3-x4 bb

2. x3 the raise

3. treat them like tptk , dont reraise cbets or barrels , value bet them and sometimes shove against a reraise on flop.
 
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swingro

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2NL and 4NL stakes are very different animals than the rest of the lvls. Most of the ppl have no idea what they are doing. Blackrain79 discussed about this in his book. I suggest everyone new to the game to buy his book.
Big raises preflop from EP like 6x,8x with AA,KK are a way to value your big pairs at FR. Fish will call with whatever they think looks nice and if they have a draw , top or middle pair they will put their stack on the line. You just need to bet, bet bet. Usualy regs will fold on the flop and fish will call. Anyway if they do not hit the board hard they will not fight back postflop. They will chase draws, overvalue top pair but will not reraise without 2 pairs or better.If a passive guy or a nit comes over the top you are beat for sure.
Exceptions are good regs and maniacs. Against maniacs you can shove if they come over the top. Against good regs there is another story but they are very rare at 2Nl and 5NL.
Also you can take pot control line like checking the turn or river if an obvious draw completes.
 
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tomnovember

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Do not too love your AA - QQ. Just play them in normal way. Your profit won't just come from a single hand or several, but from millions of hands you have played.
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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Against good regs there is another story but they are very rare at 2Nl and 5NL.

They are much more common here on the US legal sites than you would think. Take WPN for instance: A lot of WPN's playerbase is comprised of New York cash game players who can't play on Merge or Bovada. What you wind up with is a bottleneck of solid regs at the micros all trying to build a bankroll from 2nl on up.

It's different over on our side of the pond these days. We have to adjust for a small, more competitive market that we're experiencing right now.

The fish are definitely still out there...but it's nothing like what you guys see on Stars.
 
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