Getting it in AK pre flop 10NL

Jblocher1

Jblocher1

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Ok guys I constantly have a question at cash games... Lets say I have AK 100 big blinds deep UTG. I open to 2.5BB and the button 3 bets to 6BB. He has 100BB as well. Am I always 4 betting against an unknown here? I would assume so... But when he flats and and I miss the flop... Do I donk lead out?

So basically I want some opinions... Do I...
1. Flat 3 bet

2. 4 bet, and then 6 bet get it in if he 5 bets me?

Personally I hate the flatting the 3 bet option... But when I 4 bet and get 5 bet... I'm almost always behind because his range has been polarized down to AK, QQ+ IMO I mean what would an unknowns range be when he 5 bets? Can u profitably 6 bet get it in against an unknown at 10NL with AK?
 
Cafeman

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I would 4bet because in my experience unknowns at 10NL are, on average, donkaloids.

Once we know more about how they play then we can make a more informed decision.

Also, flatting is fine, as long as we don't plan on folding all flops we whiff.
 
WVHillbilly

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You can profitably get AK in against a range of AK/QQ+ if you 4bet and he shoves. Even a smallish 4bet to say 22 bb is way more than enough to give you the equity you need to call a shove if that's his range. In my experience at 10nl an unknown villains range will be wider than that and may even include AQ.
 
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jcdagenius

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u can flat and still profit.....if you 4 bet and he 5 bet shoves you are probably behind...and you should want to avoid high variance moves likes this anyway....I mean get it in with ak against people you have a read on....u can always see a flop this isn't a mtt
 
WVHillbilly

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But we have a read, he's not a regular. Assume he's bad until proven otherwise and embrace the variance!

Also if you're not 4betting AK, what are you 4betting? Only KK+?
 
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thebigslade

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Villain has 3B from the button, after a weak opening raise UTG. Has he given you any reason to assume you're behind?

I'm 4-betting in that spot everyday, anywhere between 22-25 bb. If he ships in on you, so be it.
 
acky100

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Gotta disagree here.

Flatting the 3b is probably the best unless you know the guy is an aggressive fish, 4bet calling vs a reg is bad i think, 4betting vs the usual passive fish is super bad yet most people still do it and wonder why they only run into KK+, 4betting to 22bb is far too large if he makes it 6bb and i still don't think we have the right price to call when he 5b jams, but the 4b is just way unnecessarily big imo.
 
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I personally think either is fine but OOP I'm much more inclined to 4b get it in. I also have to agree about if we're not going to 4b AK...then even regs at 10nl are just going to pick up we're 4b exactly QQ+ which we don't want to do vs regs.
 
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thebigslade

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Gotta disagree here.

Flatting the 3b is probably the best unless you know the guy is an aggressive fish, 4bet calling vs a reg is bad i think, 4betting vs the usual passive fish is super bad yet most people still do it and wonder why they only run into KK+, 4betting to 22bb is far too large if he makes it 6bb and i still don't think we have the right price to call when he 5b jams, but the 4b is just way unnecessarily big imo.

We don't know he's a passive fish, are you assuming that because of the stakes?

So you're flatting, and c/f the flop when you miss?
 
WVHillbilly

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Gotta disagree here.

Flatting the 3b is probably the best unless you know the guy is an aggressive fish, 4bet calling vs a reg is bad i think, 4betting vs the usual passive fish is super bad yet most people still do it and wonder why they only run into KK+, 4betting to 22bb is far too large if he makes it 6bb and i still don't think we have the right price to call when he 5b jams, but the 4b is just way unnecessarily big imo.
tbh I didn't even notice the raise/3bet sizes he included in his OP. Agree that 22bb is way too big considering a 3bet to 6.5 bb. Still disagree that getting it in vs an unknown isn't going to be more profitable though.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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6bb 3b, 22bb 4bet is small.. k?

flattings not that bad but I just wanna 4b gii vs most people unless stats say otherwise

edit: WV posts at same time as me obv
 
babydrago9

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You really have to know the range of the player before you can decide. If he is really tight and you notice he doesn't play too many hands, the 3 bet from him is showing he is very strong and so just flat and hope you hit. If it is another one of those donks who 3 bet with hands like AJ then just 4 bet.
 
acky100

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people dont 3bet bluff a lot at these stakes

regs do not 3bet 5bet these positions with AQ, a lot of regs don't even 3bet 5bet AK 100% (probably correctly so)

the average fish is passive and the average fish is not 3bet stacking AQ here or JJ for the most part (note i say average)

If you 4bet and get shipped on and assume his range is QQ+ AK then you still do not have a profitable call, 4betting AK and calling is worse than 4bet and folding, which means you are essentially 4bet bluffing with AK vs most in this spot.

We do NOT need to 4bet AK here, regs will not realise and even if they do, this is irrelevant, they can't do anything about it.

Its just going to be a leak a lot of the time when you just 4bet get it in vs an unknown (of course its gonna be fine vs some people) but everyone is still evidently fobbing it off as standard, when it's a standard mistake if you consider the maths and if you have a good idea of what an average opponent plays like.
 
Jblocher1

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Thanks a lot guys... Seems to not be unanimous here... I think the sizing of the 4 bet needs some work... 6BB to 22BB? The blinds= 1.5BB... I raise 2.5BB so the pot= 4BB... He raises to 6BB so the pot is 10BB... The raise your suggesting is more than double the pot. Seems pretty crazy to me... Doesn't need to be that size.
 
WVHillbilly

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people dont 3bet bluff a lot at these stakes

regs do not 3bet 5bet these positions with AQ, a lot of regs don't even 3bet 5bet AK 100% (probably correctly so)

the average fish is passive and the average fish is not 3bet stacking AQ here or JJ for the most part (note i say average)

If you 4bet and get shipped on and assume his range is QQ+ AK then you still do not have a profitable call, 4betting AK and calling is worse than 4bet and folding, which means you are essentially 4bet bluffing with AK vs most in this spot.

We do NOT need to 4bet AK here, regs will not realise and even if they do, this is irrelevant, they can't do anything about it.

Its just going to be a leak a lot of the time when you just 4bet get it in vs an unknown (of course its gonna be fine vs some people) but everyone is still evidently fobbing it off as standard, when it's a standard mistake if you consider the maths and if you have a good idea of what an average opponent plays like.
You still playing FR because it's still 100% standard at 6-max at these stakes because you will see MUCH worse very often.
 
Loonbat

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people dont 3bet bluff a lot at these stakes

regs do not 3bet 5bet these positions with AQ, a lot of regs don't even 3bet 5bet AK 100% (probably correctly so)

the average fish is passive and the average fish is not 3bet stacking AQ here or JJ for the most part (note i say average)

If you 4bet and get shipped on and assume his range is QQ+ AK then you still do not have a profitable call, 4betting AK and calling is worse than 4bet and folding, which means you are essentially 4bet bluffing with AK vs most in this spot.

We do NOT need to 4bet AK here, regs will not realise and even if they do, this is irrelevant, they can't do anything about it.

Its just going to be a leak a lot of the time when you just 4bet get it in vs an unknown (of course its gonna be fine vs some people) but everyone is still evidently fobbing it off as standard, when it's a standard mistake if you consider the maths and if you have a good idea of what an average opponent plays like.

Great reasoning here.

You still playing FR because it's still 100% standard at 6-max at these stakes because you will see MUCH worse very often.

Fair enough - he is completely right that it is a leak (ie overplayed) when dealing with FR though.
 
Loonbat

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If you're going to 4B here, I recommend making it 15 BB all-day.
 
Jblocher1

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But my basic question is... Can we stack off AK against an unknown without reads at 10NL?
 
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what is all this.....complication? have you seen the person play minimum 10 hands? i don't know what to tell you. i have folded AK over 1,000 times before.
 
Mr Sandbag

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From my experience, even a lot of weak players are only 3-betting with AK or better. So if you decide to 4-bet, you can usually expect a shove, which signals a big pair like QQ+. I would call the 3-bet, c-bet the flop, and if I'm re-raised, I'd strongly consider folding if I whiffed the flop.

That is all based on an unknown opponent and NOT one that you have a read on.
 
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thebigslade

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From my experience, even a lot of weak players are only 3-betting with AK or better. So if you decide to 4-bet, you can usually expect a shove, which signals a big pair like QQ+. I would call the 3-bet, c-bet the flop, and if I'm re-raised, I'd strongly consider folding if I whiffed the flop.

That is all based on an unknown opponent and NOT one that you have a read on.

So essentially you flat the 3b and donk the flop, fold to a reraise if you miss? I don't see this as profitable, sorry. No reason villain wouldn't raise the flop with two overs, draws etc; and if you're called are you C-betting the turn as well?

Don't see the logic in flatting the 3b to do this, better off 4b/folding.
 
Mr Sandbag

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So essentially you flat the 3b and donk the flop, fold to a reraise if you miss? I don't see this as profitable, sorry. No reason villain wouldn't raise the flop with two overs, draws etc; and if you're called are you C-betting the turn as well?

Don't see the logic in flatting the 3b to do this, better off 4b/folding.

My point is:

1. His AK is most likely in trouble unless the villain is known for 3betting less than premium hands
2. He's unlikely to get villain to fold since he is probably holding a big hand/pair
3. He can get his money in with AK, but he better be prepared to see QQ+

And yes, if you miss and your cbet is called, you cbet the turn. But the villain is either raising/shoving your cbet or folding. If he does just call, he's either slowplaying a set or better or he missed (AK also?). I rarely see a standard player play this any other way, and until he proves he's not a standard player, I proceed like he is.

I don't think 4bet folding is profitable. If you run that repeatedly against unknowns, you'll be up against AK or better most of the time and villain is shoving, so you'll be folding most of the time. I don't think I've EVER seen a non-maniac or non-aggro 3bet and fold to a 4bet.
 
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