Getting away from AK

vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
When we have AK and open raise from MP or EP or LP( doesnt really matter), and we get 1 or 2 flatters and flop comes K 37 rainbow , or AXX rainbow .

Now lets say we pot it or close to pot it cause were trying to get value and we get raised or called. and we start thinking to ourselves "they hit their set" (which 99% of the time they have ,esp if they raise your pot sized bet).


Are we capable of letting it go? Is it correct to let it go? (just in case he doesnt have it )


Who is capabe of letting go of top pair top kicker in a situation like this?



Was looking through my HUD and saw quite a few situations where i got stacked cause i hit my ace or king on a rainbow dry A or K high flop to a set.




EDIT: and if we DO decide to let it go, what is your criteria to help you in making the decision?.......cause i honestly dont really know.



Cause sometimes i think to myself, well if this is it ,this is it. IS it kind of like a set vs set scenario? Or different?
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
And heres a cool little exercise:

For those of you who say you can find a fold in a situation like this. Could you go through your HUDS and find a hand where you folded TPTK on a rainbow dry flop to a jam or a reraise and post it here giving reasoning?


Versus two flatters, i can understand it but versus one villain is it possible?
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
Hey Vinyl :)

Now lets say we pot it or close to pot it cause were trying to get value and we get raised or called. and we start thinking to ourselves "they hit their set" (which 99% of the time they have ,esp if they raise your pot sized bet).
Generally, there are two main consequences of you making big bets on the flop:
1) You're making V's turn range much stronger
2) You're building a big pot
so don't be surprised they will call you only with strong hands when you bet that big (2p+ on those type of boards) :)

Are we capable of letting it go? Is it correct to let it go? (just in case he doesnt have it )
Sure. Here is a thing though: most people these days understand that it's suicidal for them to immediately raise all their sets on boards like those you've mentioned because...they are only representing what they actually have (especially if their CC range is so damn narrow) + they don't have enough hands to construct a reasonable flop raising range (because again: their CC range is so narrow and the board so dry). So they will usually delay raising all of their sets to later streets.



Was looking through my HUD and saw quite a few situations where i got stacked cause i hit my ace or king on a rainbow dry A or K high flop to a set.
It's sooooo typical for lowest Zoom games, where lots of people only cold call to setmine and they don't even have a flop calling range on those type of boards. Some of them might go a bit out of line though, going for an exploitive flop raise (and shutdown on turn) because "everybody knows you are supposed to cbet 100% of A,K-high dry boards" so thats one thing to keep in mind but IMO Turn/River raises are pretty much always sets (in those games) unless you have a specific read/history.



EDIT: and if we DO decide to let it go, what is your criteria to help you in making the decision?.......cause i honestly dont really know.
Mostly V's: cold calling (CC) range + flop/turn raising ranges (which are partially a fraction of his CC range) + how often he follows up with a bet on later streets + WTSD/W$SD + some basic aggression stats <- thats a first stats chain that comes to my mind right now.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
i hear ya FKnife. Good points. Esp when we go for pot bet on the flop and suddenly the pot gets pretty big. Heres the thing though, when we raise AK and we see an Ace or King high board,arent we supposed to want to be trying to build a big pot?


Like we can always pot flop,check turn for deception and then pot river making villains think second pair might be good.


Im asking if we are 3 bet,this always means we are up against a set for the most part. Problem i have though is letting it go.

A year ago i would let it go easy breezy,its just that lately i see people clicking it back to us as preflop raisers with a lower pair in order to slow us down. You ever see that?
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
i hear ya FKnife. Good points. Esp when we go for pot bet on the flop and suddenly the pot gets pretty big. Heres the thing though, when we raise AK and we see an Ace or King high board,arent we supposed to want to be trying to build a big pot?


Like we can always pot flop,check turn for deception and then pot river making villains think second pair might be good.
Have you heard of a term called: Point of honesty (POH)? (it's basically a point from which V will continue to put money into the pot ONLY with strong hands). For dry flops, POH is usually on the Turn because: well, everyone expects you to cbet those flops with almost your entire range so you will be called with various hands. When you do fire on the turn, it does look like you indeed have a TPTK and because his turn range will most likely be strong (TPTK+)-weak (various bluffcatchers) you will only be called by top part of that range (given the assumption that not everyone likes to call a second barrel with a marginal hand without a chance of improving which is a case on dry boards).

You do want to build a big pot but not necessarily against much stronger range ("big hand big pot, small hand small pot" and all that crap). I don't say you can't go for 3 streets of value with that type of hand, just be aware that the V's part of range that you're targeting is very narrow (like TPnK/TPwK, medium pairs etc (not to mention that when you have a pair of Aces on the flop, it reduces the amount of Aces he can have) - some people might not even have those hands there and/or are not willing to play a big pot with them).

Last but not least: I wouldnt go into a habit of betting POT on those flops (especially against "better" players). Oh and...pot controlling the turn (bet/check/bet) with TPTK is very common on 5NL/10NL Zoom (everyone is scared they might be against a set there, so you are not alone) :)

Im asking if we are 3 bet,this always means we are up against a set for the most part. Problem i have though is letting it go.

A year ago i would let it go easy breezy,its just that lately i see people clicking it back to us as preflop raisers with a lower pair in order to slow us down. You ever see that?

I'm not playing that much anymore, but yea I saw lots of strange/funny things - usually it's good to take a note of/keep in mind that stuff so you know what it means in the future.

(Setmining, especially OOP, in a 3bet pot and then only playing fit/fold on the flop is generally not a great strategy).
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
fknife, you gained my respect with your breakdwon. solid thinking there bud and nice answers. thanks a lot.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
This is super read-dependent. If you have observed an opponent that usually just calls down with Ax hands rather than raising, you could make the case for a fold. However, against an anonymous opponent I think you'd generally be incorrect in folding AK in these spots. It's hard to logically assume an opponent would play a set or two pair so strongly on dry flops unless you've specifically seen it.


Note: why are you betting the pot on these board textures with TPTK? You say it is to get value from worse hands, but then you go on to assume your opponent has a better hand if he calls. Though it seems odd to say with a hand like this, you're turning your hand into a bluff if you rarely expect to get called by anything worse. Betting half-pot or 60% will be much more effective in getting hands like pocket pairs and middle pairs to call. True - your opponents will be hard-pressed to muck AQ when you pot it, but you are blocking some combos of Ax. It's important to think about how to get value from their entire range of worse hands and not just the top of that range.

Also, depending on the stakes, you have to be sure to balance your range. Are you potting it in that same spot with air?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying you should never pot it here ever. There are definitely spots and players that warrant this sizing, but in general you are probably missing out on value.
 
Top