Fundamental problem with my game, help urgently needed!

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Beasty2k

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Very unstructured post, sorry about that.

Right, so I mostly play NL10 FR both zoom and regular cash games. I have tried moving both up and down but the results are the same (bankroll is ok for levels around here). I have developed a worrying habit of winning small pots and losing big ones. I don't have any specific hand histories to illustrate, but I will try and explain what I mean - any help (any guess really!) is very much appreciated. Please feel free to ask questions about my game if you need specifics, I really don't know where to start the explaining bit...

I do think I have a solid understanding of the game, but I am guessing there is one major flaw somewhere, probably something very fundamental and apparent and (somewhat) easy to correct. I am trying to find out what! I have considered coaching.

So the general question is: what could be the biggest leak for a player winning a lot of small pots and losing big ones, (most likely at showdown)?

I don't have any stats to post but I am guessing that my showdown winnings are way too low. What is the quick fix for a problem like this? I think I may be overvaluing mid-strength hands, and play them fast or call a big river bet (not giving villian credit for a stronger one).

I don't think I need technical or strategical help, rather a thought process change.

Btw, I don't think I bluff too much, I do it when I think it's believable and I feel I am successful in general with my bluffing (simple stuff like floating flop & betting turn IP when board misses villians range, or raising flop). If called, I mainly give up and I am ok with that.

I win small pots by raising pf and c-betting together with the occasional 2nd barrell on good boards against single opponents. So that's all good.

When the villian plays back at me, or is the aggressor and I raise, that's when the pot gets bloated. And I call a big river bet with an ok but not great 2-pair hand.

The more I think about it, I presume the obvious problem is I don't fold enough post-flop, any clues to what thought process I should be using? I hate the thought of being bullied around. I will call off a donk bet IP with middle pair, say I hit my second OTT I might raise. And that's kind of where I get caught up in things because the pot gets too big.

I read somewhere that a big leak is folding the best hand too often, and I think this is what I am afraid of. Is it something to worry about? Should I just start folding to any kind of aggression if my holding is anything less than the nuts? For simplicity, imagine playing vs an unknown.

Also, I might too often think that the opponent will play exactly the way I would.

Sorry for the scattery post, any help would be awesome!
 
LD1977

LD1977

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Exactly the same thing as I have in 2NL.

Can't say I solved it really, but:
- IP you might consider some kind of pot control with TPTK if you are sure the opponent is not a station... stack offs with one pair against decent players are probably leaky as hell.
- Analyze big losing hands and post on this forum those you are unsure of (you can see the kind of posts I started recently, but of course focus on questions in your own weight class)... sometimes you just get coolered even though you did nothing wrong, so this is not spewing.
 
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orangepeeleo

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You already know what's wrong with your game, stop over valuing 1 pair hands, and when someone bets or raises you on the river, they're not bluffing. *especially at fr!

Value bet until raised is the secret to the micros :)
 
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cander128

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The last statement of thinking others would play like you seems to be a major mistake to me. Yes many players have very similar play but small differences in play can be huge differences in hands. Being new at a table thinking like that is fine I would say but the longer you are at the table with the same players you should be getting to know their play and adjust accordingly.
 
LD1977

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Sure, goes without saying, but he mentioned "For simplicity, imagine playing vs an unknown."

Therefore generic advice is the way to go I think.

(I know I didn't follow this myself but I suck and have a similar problem anyway :D)
 
WVHillbilly

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It's probably a combo of a couple of things.

The one you've identified, calling too lightly. I wouldn't worry about losing a full stack with 2pair against most opponents on most boards (why you're in a hand with cards that can make a "weak 2 pair" is a different question and may also be an issue). Like peelio said, just bet until raised and when raised be prepared to fold 1 pairs hands (again villain and board texture dependent).

The other likely cause is that you're probably not winning full stacks when you do have a big hand. Bet big with big hands. Don't worry about chasing most villains out of the pot. Micro stakes players call too much (just like you) so make them pay the maximum for their mistake.
 
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texasoldtimer

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Generic advice here from an amateur. Limp with small medium pocket pairs and suited connectors. Fold on flop if you miss the set or dont have 4 to the flush or 4 to the straight. 3 bet w big pocket pairs and AK/ AQ. Cbet regardless of the flop. Never expect second pair to win a pot in a full ring game.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Generic advice here from an amateur. Limp with small medium pocket pairs and suited connectors. Fold on flop if you miss the set or dont have 4 to the flush or 4 to the straight. 3 bet w big pocket pairs and AK/ AQ. Cbet regardless of the flop. Never expect second pair to win a pot in a full ring game.
Lots of bad advice here.
 
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Beasty2k

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It's probably a combo of a couple of things.

The one you've identified, calling too lightly. I wouldn't worry about losing a full stack with 2pair against most opponents on most boards (why you're in a hand with cards that can make a "weak 2 pair" is a different question and may also be an issue). Like peelio said, just bet until raised and when raised be prepared to fold 1 pairs hands (again villain and board texture dependent).

The other likely cause is that you're probably not winning full stacks when you do have a big hand. Bet big with big hands. Don't worry about chasing most villains out of the pot. Micro stakes players call too much (just like you) so make them pay the maximum for their mistake.

A lot of good comments (from other posters too), so thanks!

About the weak 2-pair... could be calling with 9Ts on the button for instance. Hitting the T and then a 9 OTT, for instance (without obvious draws). I probably should pot control, and not play for stacks here, right? I need to fold to a big river bet I take it? Just realize that my weak 2-pair isn't enough (often enough).

One thing I do find is that I don't have a problem betting big with top 2 pair on AKx board, but when I try and get 3 streets of value (GII by the river) he always shows up with a set or better. I am not talking about suckouts OTT where he hit trips, but just the feel that the only time I get called for 3 streets (which I WANT to be) is when I am beat. Here, I lose a big pot.

The few times villain has a worse hand, he will just fold the flop. So here, I win a small pot.

Conclusion being: When trying to get 3 streets of value I lose a big pot by the river, or win a small one by villain folding my flop cbet.

This is what I am struggling with (and, as you say, probably playing medium strength hands too aggressively or calling too much from time to time - I need to find a way to give opponents some respect).

Strangely enough I find it easier to play in multiway pots (2+ opponents, say), as people are more sincere in their patterns and are in a way easier to bluff. In a 3-bet pot I am more than happy to take it down with air after being checked to on the flop, preferably as a semibluff and if called and don't improve, I just give up. It's heads up I am struggling big time.
 
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Beasty2k

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You already know what's wrong with your game, stop over valuing 1 pair hands, and when someone bets or raises you on the river, they're not bluffing. *especially at fr!

Value bet until raised is the secret to the micros :)
Thanks, and I think you (and myself!) are on to something. I am over valuing my holdings. So how should I play them? I consider myself being a standard preflop player, and am confident on the flop. It's on later streets I f*ck it up.
 
Aces2w1n

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Too many marginal hands.. If you google the Way behind / Way ahead theory theres a thread on that on here, That has helped me greatly.. Sounds like your playing too many of those hands my friends....

You've got KK flop comes out A65 ...... your probably shoving .. so you win a small pot because everyones missed. Or someones hit their ace and your losing your entire chipstack.
This is the actual post from someone else.


I posted this hand, and the reason why checking >>>>> betting in hand analysis. So just thought I'd x-post it here too, as its kinda burried at the end of a long thread:

6max, Full Tilt, 100NL, both hero and villain have $100 in their stack. Assume no reads.

Preflop (6 players): Hero is dealt :ks4: :kc4: on the button
2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises to $4.5, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop ($10.5, 2 players): :ac4: :9d4: :2s4:
CO checks, Hero.....?


Most people said betting is best here. They are wrong. Checking is best:

Its a concept know as WA/WB, which stands for way ahead/way behind. It for spots where if you're ahead, then your opponent has very few outs and if you're behind, then you have very few outs. Now there are a few situations that we can class as WA/WB, and some don't fit in with this generalisation, but most the time in a WA/WB situation we will have a hand that is of medium stregnth and by betting, worse hands fold and better hands call/raise.

This situation is a perfect example of that (hence why I picked it). A few people for some unknown reason said that A4 will fold if we bet the flop. This is clearly wrong. NO-ONE will limp/call A4 preflop just to fold to a flop cbet when an ace flops. Some other people also said that villain will lead the flop if he had the ace. This is also wrong. EVERY1 c/c or c/r the flop with the ace here (leading this flop with the ace is obv bad, as it misses out on a cbet.) ANYWAY, as I was saying, If we can't fold out A4, its obvious that we can't fold out a better hand by betting. Next question, can we get a call from a worse hand. Answer...maybe....but only just. 89 for instance *might* call us on the flop, but so what? We're only getting 1 street of value out of him, so it doesn't really matter where we get it.

SO, if we bet this flop and he folds, have we really accomplished anything? Well we've won the pot, thats a good thing, right? Well, yes and no. We've won teh money, so thats obv good, but all we've done is made him fold a hand that was most probably drawing to 0-5 outs. Next question: could we play the hand in such a way so that we could have got MORE money from his 44/78/QJ etc etc. Answer...YES, we could have checked.

Look up through the post. Look how many people have said that checking is bad, because otherwise on the turn, he will bluff with his bad hands and make us fold. Its amazing quite how close every1 is. Every1 sees that, but not enough of you have taken it that 1 step further. Rather than folding to a turn bet...CALL A TURN BET! You've all said yourself that he will bet just about every hand he has, and we're ahead of just about all of those hands, so pretty obviously, calling on the turn is the best move, as we've now induced a bluff.

So consider the 2 options you have up to the turn if he has 44/QJ/67 etc. either, we can bet the flop and win the $10 pot. OR we can check the flop, let our opponent see 2 cards and possibly outdraw us, but make him pay $8 to do so. Without doing any major maths at all, it very obvious the better choice is to check the flop. Sure we win the pot LESS OFTEN, but more importantly, when we win the pot, we are winning a BIGGER POT. Now as the situation is a WA/WB one, we don't get outdrawn all that often, so the bigger pot is WAY more important than losing the pot once or twice.

Now comes the tricky part. if there is never a river card, very obviously as I hope I have shown, checking is best and please believe me when I say this (these ideas are not made up by me, they are from the top online players, way better than all of us) thats so far, its really not even close. Put yourself in villains shoes. You limp preflop with 67s and call a raise. Flop comes A-high and you check and so does the preflop raiser. The turn gives you nothing, but he checked the flop, so you decide to bet the turn as a bluff. WTF IS THIS....HE CALLED!!! Whats going through your head now? You obvoiusly think he has a decent hand. Most probably an ace and maybe an even better hand that he's slowplaying. But its pretty obvious that he has SOMETHING, or else why would he have called the turn? So on teh river, you have sweet FA. What are you going to do? Well obv you're not going to bet, because you know he has a hand, so he'll call you, so instead you bet.

Now I've played a lot and a lot (probably over 300,000) hands of online poker in the last few years, and I see this exact proccess the entire time. Players take 1 shot at the pot when you show weakness. And when you show strength again, they freeze up. So if after you call his turn bet, he fires on the river, he really really will have your KK beat 95+% of the time. (NOTE: if you are playing vs an aggresive/bluffy player, you should also check the flop, but you should just call the river as well as the turn)

OK, so I really hope I've now shown you why checking is so so so much better if we're ahead. What thought if we're behind? What if he has Ax? Then obviously we want to put as little money in the pot as possible and obviously we want to see as many cards as possible so that we can hit our king. So, what flop action accomplishes these two tasks best, betting or checking?

Lets follow the hand through: lets say we check the flop and he bets $7 or w/e on the turn and we call. We have now paid $7 and seen both the turn and river cards and are very close to showdown. What if we decided to bet $7 on teh flop though? He can C/R us and we have paid $7 and seen no more cards! or maybe he will call and lead the turn, and again we have paid $7 and just seen 1 more card. OR VERY BEST CASE, maybe he just call AND checks turn and then obv we check. THEN we see the turn and river for just $7. But even that best case, is just the normal case if we check the flop!


So, to conclude, the reasons why checking flops in position with WA/WB hands like this are:

We induce bets from worse hands
We see all the cards for the same price
For metagame for the times we check here with a set
Because we get to showdown with more ease
Because we are less predictable (we don't just bet flop no matter what....we keep our opponent guessing)
We still gain information, just by simlpe knowledge of how people bluff
 
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GWU73

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Fixing common big pot leaks:
The saying "big pots are for big hands" can save you alot. Laying down medium strength hands and draws to aggression can be hard, but your win rate should go up if you are not already doing so.
Making "pot odds" based calls is also a common leak. Save pot odds calculations for situations where it is close, otherwise just fold. Chances are you have less equity than you think.

gambling with callers (semi-bluffing) is a losing proposition. Just check along and value bet when you hit. This was one of my biggest problems when I started playing online.
 
Chronical23

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Read and re read information. Learn best when not actually play but reading indepth help and strategies
 
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