Folding Top Two?

A

ashtonkutch2

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Total posts
1
Chips
0
Hi All,

This is my first post here so I am hoping this is the right place to post this.
I am playing NL25, actually just started to take the game seriously.
I feel like there is still a lot to learn for me...


I am having troubles with folding certain hands in certain situations on the river (...)
Usually I know when I am making a mistake (usually), unfortunately sometimes only when I am analysing the hand afterwards...


I wanted to share 2 similar hands where I understand that I made a mistake but it is not 100% for me why.


If someone would be able to take some time to analyse them and provide some feedback that would be great.


1.


Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6
Seat 2: Player2 ( $25 USD )
Seat 1: Player1 ( $28.14 USD )
Seat 4: Player4 ( $25.36 USD )
Seat 5: HERO ( $25.35 USD )
Seat 3: Player3 ( $30.05 USD )
Seat 6: Player6 (Villain) ( $155.80 USD ) - his stack size changes anything?
Player4 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
HERO posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ks Ad ]
Player6 raises [$0.70 USD]
Player1 folds
Player2 will be using their time bank for this hand.
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
HERO raises [$2.15 USD]
Player6 calls [$1.70 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, Kd, 3s ]
HERO bets [$3.49 USD] - - - - - protecting against draw/value bet - correct?
Player6 raises [$6.98 USD]
HERO calls [$3.49 USD] - - - - - put him on a flush draw or bluff here
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
HERO checks
Player6 checks - - - - - wouldn't he bet with the made flush?
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
HERO bets [$6.10 USD] - - - - - I figured any A would call here
Player6 raises [$28.69 USD] - - - - - this should have been a clear sign of the flush......



As I wrote this now I realised that my mistake here could be that on the flop I did put him on a flush draw, but couldn't believe it on the river and felt like I have too much equity and only the flush can beat me. (OMG I am crazy)


2.


Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6

Seat 5: Player5 ( $25 USD )
Seat 3: Player3 ( $29.54 USD )
Seat 2: Player2 ( $25 USD )
Seat 6: Player6 ( $47.52 USD )
Seat 1: HERO ( $25 USD )
Seat 4: Player4 ( $26.95 USD )
Player2 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ac Qc ]
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
HERO raises [$0.60 USD]
Player2 calls [$0.50 USD]
Player3 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, As, 6c ]
Player2 checks
HERO bets [$1.03 USD]- - - - - should be standard
Player2 raises [$3.50 USD]
Your time bank will be activated in 6 secs. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
HERO calls [$2.47 USD] - - - - - - once again, I figured he is on a flush draw
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qh ]
Player2 bets [$5.38 USD]
HERO calls [$5.38 USD] - - - - - I figured 66 would be the only card to beat me here
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
Player2 is all-In [$15.52 USD] - - - - - - is he doing this with a busted draw or worse 2 pairs?



It feels like in both situations it weren't the players who beat me but I am beating myself...
 
M

MattJM68

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Total posts
107
Chips
0
Hi All,


1.


Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6
Seat 2: Player2 ( $25 USD )
Seat 1: Player1 ( $28.14 USD )
Seat 4: Player4 ( $25.36 USD )
Seat 5: HERO ( $25.35 USD )
Seat 3: Player3 ( $30.05 USD )
Seat 6: Player6 (Villain) ( $155.80 USD ) - his stack size changes anything?
Player4 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
HERO posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ks Ad ]
Player6 raises [$0.70 USD]
Player1 folds
Player2 will be using their time bank for this hand.
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
HERO raises [$2.15 USD]
Player6 calls [$1.70 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, Kd, 3s ]
HERO bets [$3.49 USD] - - - - - protecting against draw/value bet - correct?
Player6 raises [$6.98 USD]
HERO calls [$3.49 USD] - - - - - put him on a flush draw or bluff here
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
HERO checks
Player6 checks - - - - - wouldn't he bet with the made flush?
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
HERO bets [$6.10 USD] - - - - - I figured any A would call here
Player6 raises [$28.69 USD] - - - - - this should have been a clear sign of the flush......


As I wrote this now I realised that my mistake here could be that on the flop I did put him on a flush draw, but couldn't believe it on the river and felt like I have too much equity and only the flush can beat me. (OMG I am crazy)

Ok my first comment is that a stack that size is usually indicative of a strong player as its rare to see someone rack up 600bbs but thats not a great indicator, would prefer to see some stats to more accurately construct some ranges.


Pre flop play seems standard, Villains range seems like [JJ-22,AQs-ATs,KQs,AJo+,KQo].


Great flop for our hand, we're beating everything except 88, 33, and a weirdly slow-played AA or KK (Only one combo of KK so fairly irrelevant), getting value from KQ, TT+, and flush draws, so I like the bet size of around 75% to charge the draws and get good value from weaker hands.


When he raises he is polarising his range to 88,33,KQs,AsQs,AsJs,AsTs,AKo,KQo which is quite bad for our hand as we now only have 55%.



In this situation a call is fine but it will put us in some difficult situations on later streets, if we call the pot is $18.40 with ~$$16 behind. Depending on the player a shove may be a better option, if you think he calls with his whole range, sets, flush draws and worse kings, then its profitable as we win 55% of the time. However a good player may fold his KQ's meaning we have only 33.6%.


Tough one really but I think either choice is fine, maybe because you have the Ks in your hand you can call with the flush blocker.


Turn is bad, if he value raised on the flop then we look like we make the flush and get no value and if he semi bluffed the flop with a flush draw, he gets there. When he checks back the turn it doesn't mean he can't have the flush. He has few bad cards for him other than a board pair or a forth spade, so doesn't need to protect his hand, and it allows him to get value from Kx on the river that may not call a lead out on the turn as it looks so strong.


River is a pretty sick one, but i'm not a massive fan of the bet. It may seem tight, but when you think about it, it does'nt really improve our hand, and i doubt you were betting non A or K. We've said that the villain had 88,33,KQs,AsQs,AsJs,AsTs,AKo,KQo so what calls our bet? I don't give him credit for any As bluff hands as they would/should continue on the turn when he has the nut blocker. So I would check the river and be worried if he bets, maybe find a tight fold but I wouldn't hate a call if he bets $6-$9 as our hand is strong.


As played it's a fold, I can't find any bluffs and we don't beat his value range. I get why you called, I do it all the time myself, especially after experiences with players that take this line with nonsense hands and I have a strong holding such as this. Then I go back through it and realised I could have saved myself money had I thought it through better. Don't beat yourself up over hands like this, they hurt cos it's your whole stack but they're rare and you will earn more by concentrating on getting max value from your strong holdings, which, from your river bet, it looks like you're trying to do. Remember to ask yourself what calls me when I bet here and if he can't have a certain hand due to his play preflop / on the flop, then he can't have it on the river.






I don't normally play this stake, student bankroll limits me to $0.02/$0.05, so let me know if my analysis isn't applicable to this stake. Also if you had any more info on the villain it would be helpful in analysing this better. Let me know if you have any questions or think i'm missing something as i'm trying to learn myself.


Will have a look at the other hand later.
 
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