Folding QQ preflop, cash game.

Timmah120

Timmah120

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Hey all,

I read an interesting thread on folding QQ during tournaments. I ran into pocket KK in a cash game recently online with QQ.

The tourney thread specifically (and correctly, in my opinion) outlines the perfect times to fold QQ preflop. So my question is...how about cash games? Should you ever fold QQ? What are the odds that your opponent will be dealt KK, AA, or the coin-flip situation, AK?

Ignore the idiots that shove with inferior cards and suck-out...that's not really what I'm concerned about.

Thanks!
 
CerberAcE

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Fullring or 6max?

Speaking as a full ring player I would say yes there are times to fold QQ...Alot of the decent players with 100bbs wont stack off preflop with QQ or AK unless its a blind battle...so against these players you wont be in good shape at all when you get 4bet or shoved on.

Short stacks will normally shove a wider range 99+, AQ+ so I wouldnt fold.

But like all things its villian dependant, thats where your HUD stats and player notes help out.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I feel like I post this chart once a week...

Opponent's 3-bet Percentage Required to 4-bet/call off preflop for 100bb's.
* KK+: Good against any range
* QQ: vs 3% or higher
* JJ: vs 6.5% or higher
* TT: vs 8.5% or higher
* 99: vs 10.5% or higher
* 88: vs 12.5% or higher
* 77: vs 14% or higher
* AKs: vs 3% or higher
* AQs: vs 8% or higher
* AJs: vs 13% or higher
* AKo: vs 5% or higher
* AQo: vs 9% or higher

If you're facing a 4-bet instead of a 3-bet, it becomes a little more complicated. And it should be a less frequent spot, since you should rarely be 3-bet/folding queens. Because if you're planning to 3-bet/fold as your line, you should probably just flat their open in the first place.

So yeah, I'll save the "facing a 4-bet" math for someone else.
 
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watchtowel

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Nice chart, gives me a better ideaof my 3betting range. What sample size do I need for this chart to be useful?
 
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Yesterday at Commerce, at the 3/5 200NL game, I had to lay down QQ preflop to a 4bet shove by villain OTB. He opened to 20 OTB, I 3bet him to 62 out of the SB and he 4bet shoved for about 150 effective. I laid it down and he showed AA and said nice fold. At the stakes I play, a 4bet almost always means AA or KK. Pretty easy laydown. I'm never folding KK though.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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So my question is...how about cash games? Should you ever fold QQ? What are the odds that your opponent will be dealt KK, AA, or the coin-flip situation, AK?
I have folded QQ pre in cash games many times.

You are coming at it from the wrong angle though, its not about odds of other players getting dealt KK or AA.

You need to consider what each individual villain would be 3betting, 4 betting, or 5 betting etc with. Against some players I am super happy to call QQ vs a 5bet shove, yet vs some super nits I would have no issues folding QQ to a 3bet.

As your player notes impove, so will your decisions.
 
biaavia

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If somebody goes all in in cash game I throw QQ in 85%.:) 3-5 bet is perfect:)
 
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KALUGAJ

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All-in with QQ with little stak
 
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stacionar

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Any couple needs to be able to be thrown off even if very much looks beautifully...
 
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joe777

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This depends a lot on the villain stats.
 
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Excomm

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What are the odds that your opponent will be dealt KK, AA, or the coin-flip situation, AK?

That's a nice chart with the 3 bet stats above.

Here is the answer to your question specifically.

Odds to be dealt individually...

AA only 220:1 (0.45%)
KK only 220:1 (0.45%)
AK only 81.875:1 (1.21%)
AA, KK, or AK 46.357:1 (2.11%)

More relevant to the question is how likely is an opponent at the table to be dealt KK or AA which depends on the number of opponents.

I'm not sure how the calculation for that works so I can only give you this answer from a table

Probability of facing KK or AA when holding QQ

against 5 opponents 0.0484 (4.84%)
against 8 opponents 0.0766 (7.66%)

Given that AK is over twice as likely to be dealt as AA and KK combined I would guess that you can roughly double these probabilities to include AK.

As you can see, the occurrence of premium hands going against one another is significant especially in a cash game where you can wait as long as you want.

If you are curious the probability of facing KK AND AA when holding QQ is

against 5 opponents 0.00091 (0.091%)
against 8 opponents 0.00220 (0.220%)

(I included this because it happened to me in a tournament two days ago :) )
 
6

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And it should be a less frequent spot, since you should rarely be 3-bet/folding queens. Because if you're planning to 3-bet/fold as your line, you should probably just flat their open in the first place.

I disagree with this. At the micro stakes, it is perfectly acceptable to take a 3bet/fold line with QQ, since players will often flat-call a 3bet with junk hands like AJo, but will rarely 4bet you with anything worse than KK+, thus it's profitable to 3bet/fold a very wide range of hands. What it comes down to is the realisation that exploitative poker will make you more profit than GTO poker (game theory optimal), even though exploitative poker allows you to be exploited (but we assume that fish won't exploit you for it).
 
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Dan Lucas

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I have folded QQ pre-flop in cash games, but usually only when 3 or more opponents are raising and re-raising each other or going all-in. And it doesn't matter if I am acting early or acting late. And it does depend on my familiarity with my opponents. If I don't know them, I will fold to over the top bets, because it is usually KK or AA.
 
proud2Bwhack

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Maybe this will help:
Every 30+ times you get KK you will be facing AA, so you dont fold them ever. QQ is way more problematic at 15-1.
Im talking full ring odds.
 
DanBilzerian

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I lost 9 of 10 preflop shove with Pocket Jacks too , so useless ... its on of the pairs i hate on pokerstars
 
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Have to have sense of player range, stack size, and position for cash games.

NIT UTG 3,4 or 5 betting, fold-em. Loosy goosy stealing blinds all in, call.

As always in poker, every situation is different.
 
Zhendos

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against 3bets I put dense 4bet with QQ if I receive push, then I fold, well and still of course everything depend on statistics on the opponent
 
Bladepengeee

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I called allin in cash game with QQ and the other player had AA -.- this happen with me many times that i lost with QQ i so hate it xD
 
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paulsmall007

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I'd like to at least see the flop if it's not outrageously expensive, qq is a top tier hand, and as listed above, the times your gonna be facing the kk or aa is gonna be pretty rare, at least see a flop
 
luiaguila

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in a little cash table you will see someone pushing everything with QQ against a 3bet rise probably will conduct a 3 bet to your bet there is where you have to think even force them to allin I do not think throw your hand
 
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It's worth mentioning in situations like this that how the opponents have played up to this point would determine whether or not I would call. Early in a session with little information I would probably just call and write off a loss to variance, but if I'm at a table for a while and the guy who re-raised me all in has played the entire time without doing so I'm more likely to give him credit for KK or AA.

In 3 way pots you run into AK/AQ AXs royal combos so often that I'm more inclined to call (unless again a super nit has put his chips in).

In 4+ way pots with QQ even if you are up against AA or KK you still have a 20% chance to make your set and you are getting incredible pot odds to call. If you are the best hand your equity is likely in the lead at around 40-50% to win all those chips.
 
johnny tigre

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All-in with QQ with little stak

This happened to me last week in a tourney.
All day i was getting garbage hole cards and i cant get going. 3 hrs later I had QQ and was shortstacked already and the other guy went all-in and im covered so i called.
He had KK and the board didnt help. Sad thing is that there was six players to go before itm. Hehe.
Bad timing for the girls to show up.
 
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So many unknowns here to give a definitive answer. Number of players in the pot, size of stacks, expertise of players, etc. Play QQ normally, if there is a raise and a reraise, best to fold
 
Syltan

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To lose a few QQ preflop in cash game is not a crime, and even more in most cases this cost savings.
 
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