Folding KK preflop: would you do so in these situations?

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mottotom27

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I understand that KK is the second best preflop hand and in most cases i will happily call of my stack with it. But there are certain, specific situations where I find when I do so I am almost always up against AA. Here are two cases:

1) I raise with KK from EP and a guy (let's call him Mr Nit) playing 10/8 with a 3B of around 2% re-raises me. I make a 2.5x 4bet and he then (min) 5 bets me.

2) Mr Nit opens from EP, I re-raise from a later position. Folds round to Mr Nit who (often after tanking for a short while) puts in a (small) 4 bet.

In the past I have always got it in with KK in these spots but since I cannot recall a time where I have been up against anything worse than KK, I am now questioning whether it is correct to stack off here. Here is my reasoning for the two above cases:

1) The nit has a low 3B stat which is already a narrow range of hands. The 3B vs my EP raise shows a ton of strength. The min 5 bet especially is a bit of a tell that they have AA.

2) When the nit opens from EP and I 3 bet him, there is a tendency at micros for most nits to just call the 3 bet with a hand like QQ. So when he 4 bets me (especially after tanking) he is representing that he has the goods.

Obviously if instead of the positions above, it was button vs blinds or CO vs BTN etc, then I would get in KK every time against the nit, but due to the nature of the POSITIONS in the above examples (at least one of us in EP) I find I am getting it in bad with KK almost always (in fact I cannot recall a time when the nit has shown QQ/AK in these spots). It would be interesting to hear what everyone else does in these situations...am I just getting unlucky over my sample or should I be making big folds in these spots?
 
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mottotom27

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Well I've played 48 hands this month where I've gone AIPF with KK. 20 of these I've been up against AA and quite a few of these were against nits.
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Well I've played 48 hands this month where I've gone AIPF with KK. 20 of these I've been up against AA and quite a few of these were against nits.

So 28 times you had the best hand...
 
rogerdelpk

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I might fold KK preflop when im deep stack and the other guy is a winning regular....
 
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mottotom27

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So 28 times you had the best hand...

Yes just under 60% percent of the time i got it in with KK with on average around 75% equity and 40% of the time i got it in vs AA with less than 20% equity. So overall my all in EV is about break even when AIPF with KK (not ideal).
 
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cantwinaflip

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I think stack depth is the most important factor when considering folding KK preflop. However in scenarios like number 1 you could quite easily fold as long as you have a large sample size on the player in question.
 
jazzaxe

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If you have successfully isolated one player, you need to get as much as possible into the pot before the flop. You are behind only one hand and the odds are worth the risk.
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Kings run into aces on average every 5k hands. If it has happened more than that then it's just bad luck.
 
thetick33

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everything I bring to table I can lose or burn is my first rule of poker so no never would I fold kk preflop.

I also dont generally fold any pockets except tournaments. Sometimes in tournaments because of situation will fold lower pockets up to 8's. If am hitting sets doubt do that.

I mix up play though a lot betting etc... depending where am button if limp I fold kings when ace hits and a hot guy on the flop but not preflop not too often actually I dont recall ever folding kings. Tens in a major event on tilt once I folded. Jacks or higher super doubtful and I had a very bad legacy with queens lol seriously for a long time :)

Yet my stake in rake game would be losable? for me so kk I wouldnt even consider it?


I have a lot of rules have just gotten started but when get rooms with money all of them will have a 10 percent rule etc.. so need 250 on a site before will ring so probably be doing quarters for now build up etc.. till am comfortible so losing 25? Not a biggie. Not if have stack and can afford it. I use freerolls to bank my amounts on sites so is all free money but as said will make rules slowly. So whatever lose? Will not affect me in pocket and especially confidence or life.


I play for fun right now but soon will get serious again right now am just getting feet wet again though.

Best advice do not use money you cant lose. Than the kk thing? Well if you feel losing 200 is too much dont be playing stakes that can make you lose 200:) is pretty simple!! just free advice. I have been up to 5/10 in past in life so i guarantee when start ring rake? i will be playing for 25.00 at a time to start
One have to make sure game is on. I dont like to lose:)
 
suby_rafael

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I find I am getting it in bad with KK almost always (in fact I cannot recall a time when the nit has shown QQ/AK in these spots)....am I just getting unlucky over my sample or should I be making big folds in these spots?

Since we are talking exclusively pre flop plays then never worry much :afraid: about getting in bad with :kd4::ks4:, if you start doing that then you'll be the biggest knit at the table. There is no need to even look at villain's stats or any kind stats for that matter when you have pocket kings. Just get it in ... :pepsi:
 
Ducbim

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Yes you may fold KK profitably in those particular situation, but you need to have some histories with your opponent already.
 
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nygmen2007

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I always go to make chips, and ifthe guy does not represent he have aces you play that hand everytime.. There will be times you ose and times you win, but unless you have a solid read for aces you play that hand. You need a long detailed history.
 
2

2503877

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everything I bring to table I can lose or burn is my first rule of poker so no never would I fold kk preflop.

I also dont generally fold any pockets except tournaments. Sometimes in tournaments because of situation will fold lower pockets up to 8's. If am hitting sets doubt do that.

I mix up play though a lot betting etc... depending where am button if limp I fold kings when ace hits and a hot guy on the flop but not preflop not too often actually I dont recall ever folding kings. Tens in a major event on tilt once I folded. Jacks or higher super doubtful and I had a very bad legacy with queens lol seriously for a long time :)

Yet my stake in rake game would be losable? for me so kk I wouldnt even consider it?


I have a lot of rules have just gotten started but when get rooms with money all of them will have a 10 percent rule etc.. so need 250 on a site before will ring so probably be doing quarters for now build up etc.. till am comfortible so losing 25? Not a biggie. Not if have stack and can afford it. I use freerolls to bank my amounts on sites so is all free money but as said will make rules slowly. So whatever lose? Will not affect me in pocket and especially confidence or life.


I play for fun right now but soon will get serious again right now am just getting feet wet again though.

Best advice do not use money you cant lose. Than the kk thing? Well if you feel losing 200 is too much dont be playing stakes that can make you lose 200:) is pretty simple!! just free advice. I have been up to 5/10 in past in life so i guarantee when start ring rake? i will be playing for 25.00 at a time to start
One have to make sure game is on. I dont like to lose:)
lately i've had bad luck with QQ,lol,but i dont think it was bad luck though!
 
EA2USN

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I would have no problem folding KK in those situations, fold and wait for a better EV spot to get it in.

I folded KK once in a live $2 - $5 game preflop. Situation much like 1.) very tight nitty player that I have had alot of history playing against, im in early position a facing a 3x raise to $20 from a loose player, wanting to try and isolate, I raise to $80, tight nit makes it $400 everyone folds, and I think about 30 seconds show my Kings and fold everyone was like wtf, then the guy who bet smiled showed his AA and said great lay down.

Look at it this way, say the card were face up and you had to fold or call your stack off with KK vs AA. Knowing that for a 100% fact you are a 4 to 1 dog. Only a fool or someone who dosnt care about there money would call it. So if your reasonably sure you can put opponent on AA. Its an easy fold.
 
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szilard101

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I would say that KK is not that sure of a hand on the preflop. There are many chances that someone has AA. Or even just an A and they will have a pair on the flop. So yeah,gotta go by instinct.
 
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BullWink

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I don't think I would fold KK. If you have lost 20 times (of 48 times) in the last month, I don't think it is many times because you were against AA. Only about 1 out of 150 times when you have KK will your one opponent have AA. So if you had KK 48 times, it is mathematically unlikely that your opponent had AA 20 of these times.

I think I would call his 4 or 5 bets BUT be very aware of what his probably hands are (AA, QQ, AK, AQ) and then see how he bets after the flop. Who knows, maybe you will make trip Kings, and then you can hope and wish that he does have pockets aces.
 
ScooperNova

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I may have folded KK once in my life. I knew the player and there was so much action preflop I was POSITIVE he had AA. My basic advice is never fold KK prefop in a cash game.
 
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UnreaLaydown

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How can you possibly lay down the Cowboys? To me its an obvious shove over top. Remember they could have kings too! You have any A K crushed to basically 3 outs and the second best possible starting hand in the game. Especially if you are an aggressive player I could see the nit not giving you any credit for a hand and could be holding Queens or Jacks.
 
ScooperNova

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This utube video sums up my thoughts on KK preflop in a cash game. The body language throughout the entire video is indicative of how KK makes me feel preflop. This does not include the body language of the guy with a blond hi top fade "flat top", it's all wrong.

This link showed me an ad the first two times I clicked on it b4 the video, so it sucks. Sorry.
 
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GWU73

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I only fold KK very rarely. Usually when 2 players are racing to get the money in. In that instance I expect one of them to have AA pretty frequently. I will put it in pre flop with KK vs one player, even if it is a crying call.
 
rytciaq

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I'd only fold KK when I know the opponent has Aces, but I can never actually know that. I'd fold pocket Kings if I was a big stack at a satellite and there was not much left to ITM. Even if the opponent is a huge nit, there's only one hand that is better than mine pre-flop.
 
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mrmochapb

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or me to fold KK preflop I have to study the player that is making the reraises previous play to dictate whether or not he has aces
 
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