Folding KK on the flop

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Mendex

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I just went busted today wi poket KK 3 bet pre-flop got called by a loose player in the CO flop was
238. Made a full size pot continuation bet of $3 the guy shove all in for $35 I called thinking he had a medium size pair he shows a set of dueces.
I wonder if I should have folded with such an unusual bet? But again he could have done that with so many other hands like 10s Jj QQ etc. What do you guys think?
 
rock0001

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unless 238 were of the same suit and you dont have a king of that suit then you made the right call. you have the 2nd best pair and there is no ace or two jacks or queens on the flop so your call is good. villain might be having A8 or pair of nines, tens, jacks or queens or even might be bluffing with a hand like ak or aq so unless villain is a tight player you shouldnt fold kings in this spot.
 
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chronical

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even if he has !only! AA, QQ, AKs, AKo your had is 57% fav vs 42%
now if you include (depending on were you play and how nitty you op is) and add JJ, AJs, AQo (hads that can be shoveble) you are 67% vs 32%, so folding here is wrong I think. Hoping for only AA PRF can be a big leak.
Big calls from loose palyers and 3bets post flop indicate a monster.
 
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Pessoa

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i think the other guy just got lucky catching you with the KK and making the set
 
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Steve_StudAA

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Playing long enough to know a couple of things. The over bet flop is usually not a bluff, the over bet river, depending on the card that just flipped usually is. Especially true in cash tables where they have committed to much cash on their missed draw and are trying to get them back.

I do not agree with previous replies.

The over pair would not be over bet in response to your bet on the flop. The over bet would not be made in response to your bet on the flop on a draw. The over bet is for value on a made hand blocking draws against players they figure as fish and will call. Your PF and pot sized c-bet was a good indication of a big pair and a message to the other player he can get and will get a call. The net was out in the water.

Lot of money to made with the right response to the over bet, people screw that up all the time.

You need to think are they over betting for value or as a pure bluff.

You will never see the over bet on the flop as a bluff by anyone other than a total retard. I would only call that over bet with a top set myself, but depending on my mood I will call with a strong draw to the nuts.

The river on the other hand.

What story have they told you thus far. If it's a changing story on the river, they missed.

If you have extra dough, the story has changed with what they have represented earlier streets, you can call the over bet, its a complete bluff with air, but does the board also represent the complete nuts?. Its a tough call, but it is profitable, lots of players do this far to much. Think of it this way, the over bet is only done for 2 reasons, nuts or pure air bluff on the river. Go with your gut.

But I don't blame you here, it sucks to run into someone who has made their set, but you have to consider it always.
 
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shanest

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How deep are we here? It sounds ok as you said this guy was a loose player. I don't mind mixing in some checks on the flop for pot control purposes. Also no need to bet pot on such a dry board.
 
Pbland

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The key word standing out for me was "loose". If your judgement is correct, he could be playing anything. Lots of loose players in the situation would have something like 45s and make the big bet, so I would've called too. The only other info that would've been good to know is did this player make any big bets before? Was he pushing people around? That will help decide if he might actually have a hand.
 
George Lewis

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You want to make certain you aren't letting your opponents know what your hand is. In this case your opponent likely knew you had AA or KK and you would not lay it done to a huge bet. So he knew that if he caught a set he would get paid off. It makes total sense for him to make this call in this case especially when you are willing to call monster over bets. Once you are called before the flop with ha hand like KK you are now in a position that you must proceed cautiously. all in before the flop is fine as it is out of your control and a cooler if the guy has AA in most cases(super nits being the exception). You 3 bet and get called and it is a rainbow 238 flop or something then pretend you havent got much. The guy will either stab with a lesser hand or bet with a monster...the only odd thing will be if he doesnt bet. Just check call at this point and a monster bet isn't likely to be a bluff or a shot at moving you off a hand. This might sound passive but it is a better way to go then to be stacked ever time some clown hits a set. with AA you are a little better off as it can happen that a guy has KK and does this but still...He cant see you fold this hand and never show that you did..if the pot is small and his bet is huge just move on.
 
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jwlaw35

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This is one of them poker hands that gets a lot of us.. it is hard to figure the set hitting the flop unless you know the player is not going to be in with anything other then a monster. It is pretty easy to call a three bet with a small pair just one of them cooler type hands that can win/lose a big pot
 
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don1980

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How much did you bet preflop? If you raise high enough before the flop the player may not have called with a pair of deuces.
 
BlackJesus

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even if he has !only! AA, QQ, AKs, AKo your had is 57% fav vs 42%
now if you include (depending on were you play and how nitty you op is) and add JJ, AJs, AQo (hads that can be shoveble) you are 67% vs 32%, so folding here is wrong I think. Hoping for only AA PRF can be a big leak.
Big calls from loose palyers and 3bets post flop indicate a monster.

This is the right kind of arithmetics, u wont get much proper than that!

A mere glance at the pot odds suggest that you should have folded with 1 pair there, no matter how high the pair is.
 
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thomasguy3419

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I just went busted today wi poket KK 3 bet pre-flop got called by a loose player in the CO flop was
238. Made a full size pot continuation bet of $3 the guy shove all in for $35 I called thinking he had a medium size pair he shows a set of dueces.
I wonder if I should have folded with such an unusual bet? But again he could have done that with so many other hands like 10s Jj QQ etc. What do you guys think?
I need a few more details about what happened preflop. How much were the blinds? What was the effective stack size? You said you 3 bet preflop so you re-raised someone. What was your position? Did someone call behind you or did the original raiser call? How many players were in the pot (limpers/callers) before the action got to you? How much did they raise and how much did you re-raise?

I'm not folding KK on a 238 rainbow flop though. If they have an unlikely set I will pay them off. 88% chance they don't have a set and your KK is holding up. Most likely they have a lower pocket pair (QQ, JJ, 1010, 99) or a pair of 8's using one of their whole cards. I'm going all in on that flop unless it's 3 cards of the same suit. Nothing you can really do about a set, better luck next time. Also when you have the set it pays off for the times you lose to sets.
 
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SPANKYSN

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You made the right play, and these things happen. The odds of him having AA or a set or even two pair are still less than your KK holding up. Over the long term, you will win far more hands with your KK than you lose.
 
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doom

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if it is online game look for posflop agg% in player stats and then make decision

 
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Mendex

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I need a few more details about what happened preflop. How much were the blinds? What was the effective stack size? You said you 3 bet preflop so you re-raised someone. What was your position? Did someone call behind you or did the original raiser call? How many players were in the pot (limpers/callers) before the action got to you? How much did they raise and how much did you re-raise?

I'm not folding KK on a 238 rainbow flop though. If they have an unlikely set I will pay them off. 88% chance they don't have a set and your KK is holding up. Most likely they have a lower pocket pair (QQ, JJ, 1010, 99) or a pair of 8's using one of their whole cards. I'm going all in on that flop unless it's 3 cards of the same suit. Nothing you can really do about a set, better luck next time. Also when you have the set it pays off for the times you lose to sets.
I was under the gun and checked, he was in the Cutoff position and raised to $0.75 I re-raised to $2.60 and he called. His stats were around 33% of hands played. So we were hads up on the floo I bet around $3 and he shoved.
 
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if it is online game look for posflop agg% in player stats and then make decision

So if his Postflop aggression was low I should fold? And if high I should call?
 
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Mendex

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I need a few more details about what happened preflop. How much were the blinds? What was the effective stack size? You said you 3 bet preflop so you re-raised someone. What was your position? Did someone call behind you or did the original raiser call? How many players were in the pot (limpers/callers) before the action got to you? How much did they raise and how much did you re-raise?

I'm not folding KK on a 238 rainbow flop though. If they have an unlikely set I will pay them off. 88% chance they don't have a set and your KK is holding up. Most likely they have a lower pocket pair (QQ, JJ, 1010, 99) or a pair of 8's using one of their whole cards. I'm going all in on that flop unless it's 3 cards of the same suit. Nothing you can really do about a set, better luck next time. Also when you have the set it pays off for the times you lose to sets.
Ps: the blinds were $0.10 $0.25
 
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Thank u all for the great responses I really appreciate.
 
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thomasguy3419

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I was under the gun and checked, he was in the Cutoff position and raised to $0.75 I re-raised to $2.60 and he called. His stats were around 33% of hands played. So we were hads up on the floo I bet around $3 and he shoved.
You made a good call on the flop but I would have played the hand a bit differently preflop by leading out with a 4BB raise under the gun with KK. I don't like letting opponents see a cheap flop and limp behind me with any pocket pair or weak ace (he tricked you by raising instead of limping behind, no way to put him on a set). I'd rather have them fold than to out flop me cheaply with a 2 pair or set. Not sure if that would have made a difference in this spot, they might have just called. If they re-raised me after I raised 4BB's then I could raise even more to make the pot bigger than 2.60 and they might have folded. I'm surprised they called 10BB's to make a set. Probably nothing you could have done to make them fold in that spot except to go all in preflop.
Ps: the blinds were $0.10 $0.25
Sounds like opponent was roughly 150BB's deep with almost $40. Hopefully you were only 100BB's deep with $25. Good luck at the tables.
 
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You made a good call on the flop but I would have played the hand a bit differently preflop by leading out with a 4BB raise under the gun with KK. I don't like letting opponents see a cheap flop and limp behind me with any pocket pair or weak ace (he tricked you by raising instead of limping behind, no way to put him on a set). I'd rather have them fold than to out flop me cheaply with a 2 pair or set. Not sure if that would have made a difference in this spot, they might have just called. If they re-raised me after I raised 4BB's then I could raise even more to make the pot bigger than 2.60 and they might have folded. I'm surprised they called 10BB's to make a set. Probably nothing you could have done to make them fold in that spot except to go all in preflop.

Sounds like opponent was roughly 150BB's deep with almost $40. Hopefully you were only 100BB's deep with $25. Good luck at the tables.
Luckly I was only 100 deep
 
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ChuckNola

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Seems like a cooler. The only thing I can say is instead of making a pot sized bet on the flop bet like 30-50% on the flop to pot control and not scream out loud that you have a Big over pair.
 
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masha535

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well, as often happens at cash tables to put KK AA , maybe he just wanted to check on you !!!!!!
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Stack off, just be sure to make a note about what he did, next time you will have a bit more information.

Call here fine though obvs.
 
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Your only option in hindsight was to bet more preflop, otherwise you made the right call.
 
Sevendeuceoff72

Sevendeuceoff72

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Not much you really can do here. This is exactly why pocket deuces calls. Such a sick feeling when you see the cards, but you can't always be playing scared of the set....this is why they call it set mining.
 
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