Folding KK

J

jvs

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Hi Guys,

Would appreciate your thoughts on the hand below from a FR $25NL Cash Game on Stars.

I convinced myself on the turn that he could only be calling me if he was ahead (QQ / AA) and laid the hand down...

Would appreciate your thoughts. Should I have bet the turn? Could I have played the PR / Flop any different given that I was out of position?

Would appreciate any suggestions or comments.

Cheers

jvs

pokerstars - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 9 players

Villain had stats of 15/15/71 (from only about 30 hands)


SB: $9.75
BB: $27.35
UTG: $27.20
Hero (UTG+1): $25.00
MP: $19.65
MP+1: $27.60
Villain: $53.68
CO: $8.25
BTN: $25.00

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has Ks Kd

fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, Villain raises to $1.50, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2.75, Villain calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.85, 2 players) 8h 7c Qs
Hero bets $3.50, Villain calls $3.50

Turn: ($12.85, 2 players) 3d
Hero checks, Villain bets $6.13, fold

Villain wins $12.27
 
S

stg1969

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Villain is obviously aggressive, what did you think he had just out of interest.

Also, had he shown down any of these winning hands, or bluffs? Its not easy for us to understand the fold without history on the villain.

Personally, with no ace on board, and no flush or straight draws, youre either putting him on bullets or trips i assume?

Personally, I probably wouldn't have folded there, but then again it kinda looked like you waved the white flag when you checked the flop.

This is just my opinion, and i dont think there's a definate right or wrong answer (queue the regs telling me about EV here we go, strap yourselves in) :D
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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lol, min raises.

4x UTG since our range is so much stronger in those spots.. and we want value for our monsters.

4 bet a LOT bigger than that, $5+ preflop please :) in general you want the SPR (stack to pot ratio) to be really small so we can barrel and jam turns.. then we don't have to worry about making hero folds.

more on the flop, more on the turn..

he has a wider range than AA/QQ, he could be floating with JJ, he could have AQ.. he could have A8, people do random shit you know!
 
Cafeman

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That's a pretty tight fold imo!

Anyways, as Campbell says, make it bigger pre and look to get it in post.
 
TylerN

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Your min raise makes his range so much wider than AA/QQ
 
A

AllInDom

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Check after flop showed weakness, Villain only called your raise at the flop. Shoving at the flop would have been strong play.
 
S

swingro

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First raise harder and 4-bet harder.
Second . After only 30 hands on him you folded on such a dry board?
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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If you're gonna 4b oop, you need to be making it ~$6, then you have a $12 pot on the flop with $19 behind, and you're not gonna be too bad off, plenty of players at $25 are gonna end up stacking with KQ/AQ/JJ, weird stuff you wouldn't expect.

As played, I really hate the fold, I think there's lots of value in showdown here
 
sixpeppers

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lol, min raises.

4x UTG since our range is so much stronger in those spots.. and we want value for our monsters.

4 bet a LOT bigger than that, $5+ preflop please :) in general you want the SPR (stack to pot ratio) to be really small so we can barrel and jam turns.. then we don't have to worry about making hero folds.

more on the flop, more on the turn..

he has a wider range than AA/QQ, he could be floating with JJ, he could have AQ.. he could have A8, people do random shit you know!

I really like this analysis and pretty much have nothing to add!
 
C

Chemist

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I'd probably have shoved after his bet on the turn (in the very unlikely event I'd played it that way up to that point).

And then would have been disgusted although not surprised when he called and turned over his dodgy 2 pair Q8 or 78.
 
G

GWU73

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I am never folding that hand. I would 4 bet him bigger pre flop ($4.50-$6.00) and plan to commit on any flop without an ace. Check -folding the turn with KK after the pre-flop action seems kinda nitty. His min 3 bet pre flop could be AA, but there are riske in NLHE and KK vs. AA happens. As played it looks like villian could have had virtually any playable hand; 99+, AQ+ and some suited connectors and suited broadway hands. ... Creating a BIG pre flop pot with KK is a very good idea; it simplifies your decision making later in the hand.
 
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sryImPro

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i will call that raise...he couldn't have AA cause he just called your reraise to 2,75 $ preflop...your only worries there could be his QQ,88,77,but hardly 33..but AA def no way..anyway you should call that raise on turn cause this guy probably hit a top pair...
 
B

bert0111

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If you have a caller with KK. You can be pretty sure he has an ace

Im allways prepared to lay them down if i see an ace on the board.
 
J

jvs

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lol, min raises.

4x UTG since our range is so much stronger in those spots.. and we want value for our monsters.

4 bet a LOT bigger than that, $5+ preflop please :) in general you want the SPR (stack to pot ratio) to be really small so we can barrel and jam turns.. then we don't have to worry about making hero folds.


Thanks for the tips guys - much appreciated.

Campbell - a couple of questions on the above (sorry I don't get all the lingo)

1. 4 x UTG since our range is so much bigger... (what do you mean by this?

2. Can you explain in a bit more detail about the SPR and why that means we can barrel the turn?

Thanks!
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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I unsubbed to this thread so you're lucky I read it!

stronger not bigger.

when we're UTG we're OOP against the whole table except for the blinds.. because of this we want to tighten up our range so we don't end up in too many marginal spots OOP.

because of our tighter range normally when we open we're crushing/dominating hands that people are playing IP (e.g. you open AK UTG, guy flats on CO with AJ.)

so since we're crushing them we want to make it more for them to play, so its essentially for value pre-flop.

also, since we have the lead and they will miss or hate the flop a lot of the time, by making it more when we take down pots with a cbet or turn barrel we make more money altogether.

on top of that, when we connect or have an overpair its easier to get stacks in without overbetting a street (although the overbet is a SICK move, you should work on using it)

umm, SPR. we're not exactly barreling the turn since we are betting for value (I hope you're not bluffing with KK in this spot) but since the pot is already so big compared to our stack, if you ship it on the turn and he calls with AA/QQ you didn't make a bad play.. it was just a cooler.
 
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OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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here's how the hand should of gone imo.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 9 players

SB: $9.75
BB: $27.35
UTG: $27.20
Hero (UTG+1): $25.00
MP: $19.65
MP+1: $27.60
Villain: $53.68
CO: $8.25
BTN: $25.00

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has Ks Kd

fold, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, fold, Villain raises to $1.75, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $5.25, Villain calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.85, 2 players) 8h 7c Qs
Hero bets $7.50, Villain calls $7.50

Turn: ($25.85, 2 players) 3d
Hero moves all in for $12.25, Villain calls $12.25

River: irrelevant.

Hero shows Ks Kd and takes the pot
Villain mucks (he had A8o)

hope this helps.

(btw I play 25nl FR as well at stars, PM if you have questions etc)
 
T

TheBowlBoy

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OMGITSOVER9K.

I don't know you :( I'm assuming you know me though from that other thread.

I just busted out of the SN quarterly free roll and I was probably on my way to the money :(
 
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX

XXXDIRTYDOGXXX

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I also agree with Campbell92
Raise more pre and get it in post
 
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