Folding to 3bets too much?

J

js520

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I've noticed that a lot of the regs 3bet me a lot so therefore must be exploiting me because I fold too much. My Fold to 3bet after raising stat is 70% (This is predominantly at 6max 30nl). Is this too high? I'd say it's generally a bit higher than that as well because you get a lot of fish who min 3bet and i never fold to a min 3bet, so for normal sized 3bets from regs my fold % is probably is a bit higher than 70. My 4 bet % is 10% so therefore call must be 20%. So what is the solution?

If we think villain is 3betting a polarised range we should flat their 3bet more, correct? So what kind of hands should we be calling with? Let's say for example we are ip in a typical CO vs SB spot where villain has a 10% 3bet and probably even more than that against me. So what sort of hands should we start calling with? I know it is villain dependent aswell as depenednt on postflop skills but I just want a general idea of what kind of hands u guys flat 3bets with.

So on the other hand if we think villain is 3betting a merged range we should 4bet more, correct? So start 4bet bluffing stuff with good blockers like KJ etc?

Thanks
 
acky100

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correct correct correct. try adding in the next best hands that you dont currently call with, a pokerstove type program of your choice will help you and you can work out your new fold to 3bet etc
 
c9h13no3

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My Fold to 3bet after raising stat is 70% (This is predominantly at 6max 30nl). Is this too high?
Just a bit. But stop worrying about stats, worry more about specific situations.

If we think villain is 3betting a polarised range we should flat their 3bet more, correct?
Isn't this kind of a big assumption? How many hands do you really see villains go to showdown with in 3-bet pots? I'd focus more on being less exploitable, and playing hands that make your post flop decisions easy...

You're mostly correct. But keep in mind that regs will be 3-betting you the most when your range is weakest. When you steal on the button 50%+, you should be folding quite often when they 3-bet you one time out of ten. The steals are more profitable than the times you lose 3 bb's to a resteal. So yeah, 70% might seem high, but 66%ish keeps you from being exploitable. Don't get bent out of shape adjusting too much.
 
jesseg

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If you're folding about 70%, then you aren't being exploited all that often overall to 3-bets of a normal size. That having been said, your biggest problems are probably going to come from opening in late position where you will be folding a higher percentage of the time. You can always 4-bet bluff slightly more often as an adjustment, but don't get too carried away with it or you'll spew.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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You're mostly correct. But keep in mind that regs will be 3-betting you the most when your range is weakest. When you steal on the button 50%+, you should be folding quite often when they 3-bet you one time out of ten. The steals are more profitable than the times you lose 3 bb's to a resteal. So yeah, 70% might seem high, but 66%ish keeps you from being exploitable. Don't get bent out of shape adjusting too much.

agreed

whats your 4bet stat?

we also need to acknowledge the fact that stats on you might not have converged on their HUDs yet.. they're more likely playing the spot as well as stats.
 
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Thanks for the replies. So basically 70% is a bit high but not that high, so just start calling with the top end of my folding range when i get 3bet and maybe 4bet bluff a bit more. But overall it's not a huge leak?

C9 I agree that most of the time we are not going to know if villains are 3betting polarised or merged but i was just making sure I had the right idea for if we do have enough hands on some villains and we notice a pattern

9K my 4bet % is 10%
 
acky100

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4betting too much can become a leak quite easily and folding to 70% 3bets is a pretty big leak in todays games, i mean like 65% and villain can 3bet ATC profitably but thats assuming he has no equity when called, even if he 3bets 72o vs you he's gonna have like 20 odd percent equity and he can realise maybe 15% of this atleast just by betting good flops for his range and bad ones for yours and waiting till he hits 2pair the occasional trips etc, so if youre folding to 60% of 3bets its still gonna be easy for villain to 3bet you and show a profit. I mean 60% is way better than 70% and probably won't abolish your winrate or anything, but really if you take a look at the best players in the games there is absolutely no way theyre gonna settle for folding to 65% of 3bets. There is tons of backwards thinking that probably comes from microstakes 2p2 years ago where its omgbad to call 3bets, i'd take a look in your database for how much you lose when you call a 3bet from say btn vs blinds, if its less than your opening size per hand so maybe 2.5bb/hand you're doing better than folding to the 3bet and should add some hands.
 
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Thanks for the reply Acky. Out of interest what is your fold to 3bet%?

Anyway I filtered my database for 30nl 6 max and calling a 3bet when I raise in either the Btn or Co. It's a very small sample, only 163 hands (I've only got about 50k hands on my database at 30nl 6max), but I'm currently winning 0.29 bb/hand and if we just take the button i'm winning 4.29 bb/hand. I get what your saying about it only needs to be better than what you lose when you fold i.e. -3bb/hand for me. So atm I'm actually doing a lot better than that calling 3bets although it's such a small sample I could just be running good. So the solution is to add a few more hands to my 3bet calling range when I open in lp and the 3bet monkeys in the blinds 3bet.
 
acky100

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Yeah thats what i'm saying, ideally you'd have a bigger sample and look how the hands near the bottom of your calling range are doing and then go from there but yeah, so far it's looking pretty appealing to call wider right? when its essentially making you a few bb's at a time :D

My fold to 3bets around 60, i'm working on getting it a bit lower also (it was nearer 70 last year!)
 
acky100

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we raise btn 2.5bb

villain raises his bb to 8.5bb

villain risks 7.5bb to win 4bb

7.5/(7.5+ 4)

= 65%

so if we fold 65% and villain is dealt two blank cards he will profit.

Never mind if we gave him a monster like 72o which will have about 27% equity when called of which he will realise a decent chunk or sure.
 
KerouacsDog

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we raise btn 2.5bb

villain raises his bb to 8.5bb

villain risks 7.5bb to win 4bb

7.5/(7.5+ 4)

= 65%

so if we fold 65% and villain is dealt two blank cards he will profit.

Never mind if we gave him a monster like 72o which will have about 27% equity when called of which he will realise a decent chunk or sure.

good example.
 
c9h13no3

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so if we fold 65% and villain is dealt two blank cards he will break even.
Meaning that if we fold 65% or less, he doesn't profit. It's the break even line. So wanting to get your fold percentage down below 65% isn't super necessary. Plus, that's just preventing him from profiting, which doesn't matter because both villain and ourselves can both make profitable moves at the same time.

Plus, realizing 72o's equity is typically quite hard. You generally end up losing more than you win with it postflop. Cuz you know, it's a losing hand? I know postflop play in your mind is OH I HAZ 20% EQUITY SO I WIN 20% OF TEH MONIES, but um, its not that simple. This is also why people don't optimally have 50% F3B stats. Its why you don't play 60% of your hands from the blinds when the button min-raises. You lose money post flop when you play with garbage. So don't go trying to push your F3B down to 50% just so you can make villain's resteal slightly less profitable.
 
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acky100

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lol i dont even know what to say because its quite obvious you're detached from the poker scene these days, and just like making stuff up/nit picking minute details for arguments sake when i post. Like i said, even 3betting a hand like 72o that has 27% equity villain will realise SOME (never did i say all) of his equity but yeh 20% might even be close with initiative. Typically its super rare that someone will not realise atleast 50% of their equity so even if we say worst case scenario villain realises 13% equity, 3betting 72o isn't looking like a losing play for villain under these conditions is it? Actually don't answer that i'm out of this thread.
 
c9h13no3

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Typically its super rare that someone will not realise atleast 50% of their equity
You're totally just making this up. Know how I know? Because it doesn't make any sense. How many showdowns do you really think you're going to go to with 27o? Why are you so bad at realizing that equity at showdown and win rate are not the same thing?
 
needaGF

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we raise btn 2.5bb

villain raises his bb to 8.5bb

villain risks 7.5bb to win 4bb

7.5/(7.5+ 4)

= 65%

so if we fold 65% and villain is dealt two blank cards he will profit.

Never mind if we gave him a monster like 72o which will have about 27% equity when called of which he will realise a decent chunk or sure.

That is a really clear example. Really illuminating. Actually I am folding 3-bet quite a lot and I am realizing now that I should change the style.
 
needaGF

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I've noticed that a lot of the regs 3bet me a lot so therefore must be exploiting me because I fold too much. My Fold to 3bet after raising stat is 70% (This is predominantly at 6max 30nl). Is this too high? I'd say it's generally a bit higher than that as well because you get a lot of fish who min 3bet and i never fold to a min 3bet, so for normal sized 3bets from regs my fold % is probably is a bit higher than 70. My 4 bet % is 10% so therefore call must be 20%. So what is the solution?

If we think villain is 3betting a polarised range we should flat their 3bet more, correct? So what kind of hands should we be calling with? Let's say for example we are ip in a typical CO vs SB spot where villain has a 10% 3bet and probably even more than that against me. So what sort of hands should we start calling with? I know it is villain dependent aswell as depenednt on postflop skills but I just want a general idea of what kind of hands u guys flat 3bets with.

So on the other hand if we think villain is 3betting a merged range we should 4bet more, correct? So start 4bet bluffing stuff with good blockers like KJ etc?

Thanks

I think regs are just testing your response to 3-bet and when you response 1 or 2 times aggressively, such as 4-bet them, they will 3-bet less and with better hands.
 
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