Fold KK preflop?

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DetroitJimmy

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I am bringing this up because I have been playing a lot of Rush 10nl FR. It seems like whenever I am up against a player with no good notes or reads(which is often the case on Rush) my KK is against AA most of the time I get it in PF.

Sometimes I swear I "know" he has aces. For example I am dealt KK in EP and make a standard 3x BB raise. get 3-bet from MP. LP 4-bets. Don't most of the time one of these guys hold aces? What if it is 5 bet? I have never laid down KK PF and was wondering if it is ever proper without reads, or ever for that matter.

BTW it seems in rush that when I do get my AA in PF, The other guy is holding KK most of the time.
 
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actorjr

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This situation sucks, but what do you do. In a rush game where the blinds move so quickly you can't lay down a hand as strong as KK.
 
DetroitJimmy

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^^^Not a rush tourney. FR $10NL Rush.
 
cjatud2012

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well, not no, but 99.9% of the time no.

sorry for not being very constructive, lol.
 
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BluffYou123

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I have a hard time laying down QQ preflop, never mind KK. Never have layed down KK preflop yet (in a satelite, yes) and don't plan on starting anytime soon. In a 5-bet pot, there's gotta be a case for folding KK though.
 
rjeezy20146

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In rush poker your more likely to be against AA or AK minimun. Players keep folding until they get good quality hands and when u finally get JJ QQ or KK u are up against AA. One ideo DONT PLAY RUSH
 
PNJs_dad

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I have a hard time folding KK. Probably a good thing not to.
 
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fx20736

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I have never folded KK preflop in a cash game. There have been a few instances when I was pretty sure I was against AA but I can't see laying it down. I checked my stats on PT for KK:

KK

Dealt 234 times
win pct: 88.46%
win rate 3.63 bb/ hand

I ran into AA 4 times and lost and lost to Ax several other times. It doesn't show how often I cracked AA with KK but I know of once for sure, possibly twice.



compare that with my stats for AA:

AA
Dealt 231 times
win pct: 96.54%
win rate 6.06 bb/ hand


QQ is a distant third

QQ
Dealt 237 times
win pct: 81.01%
win rate 1.05 bb/ hand

In other words when OOP I am now happy to just collect the blinds with QQ (or any pocket pair below it). When I am re-raised OOP by an unknown villain or known TAG villain with a 3bet% under 4% I will fold QQ without too much difficulty.
 
AtiFCOD

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Normally never fold KK preflop, but in the two big rooms (PS, FT) I would think about it. If the villain is a tight player (and u got a lot of chips), fold it IMO especially against more than 1 player.
 
DetroitJimmy

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What if you did have say 100000 hands on villian who 4-bet. What if his 4-bet range is 1%?

I know this is an extreme example but do you lay it down then?

I have personally never folded KK preflop in a cash game. I can now remember a time I did on the bubble of a satellite when I was big stacked and could coast to the prize which was the same for everyone. Even then it was hard for me.
 
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baudib1

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fold KK preflop when your opponent's range is strictly KK+ or only AA and you don't not have the equity/pot odds to continue against that range.
 
rssurfer54

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DetroitJimmy said:
I am bringing this up because I have been playing a lot of Rush 10nl FR. It seems like whenever I am up against a player with no good notes or reads(which is often the case on Rush) my KK is against AA most of the time I get it in PF.

Sometimes I swear I "know" he has aces. For example I am dealt KK in EP and make a standard 3x BB raise. get 3-bet from MP. LP 4-bets. Don't most of the time one of these guys hold aces? What if it is 5 bet? I have never laid down KK PF and was wondering if it is ever proper without reads, or ever for that matter.

BTW it seems in rush that when I do get my AA in PF, The other guy is holding KK most of the time.
Click to expand...

dont. ever.
 
rssurfer54

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not really. but in 99.9% of reasonable situations dont. maybe if its live and the guy flips his hand over by accident.
 
WVHillbilly

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This is the one I should have folded:

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $109.35
UTG: $131.60
Hero (UTG+1): $101.00
MP: $131.30
MP+1: $108.75
CO: $103.50
BTN: $98.65
SB: $235.40

SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has K:heart: K:club:

UTG raises to $2.00, Hero raises to $8.00, fold, MP+1 raises to $24.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero knows he's ****ed but shoves anyway, MP+1 calls $77.00

Flop: ($205.50, 2 players) 3:club: 9:spade: 8:club:

Turn: ($205.50, 2 players) 5:heart:

River: ($205.50, 2 players) Q:diamond:

Hero shows K:heart: K:club: (One Pair, Kings)
MP+1 shows A:diamond: A:club: (One Pair, Aces)
MP+1 wins $202.50


UTG min raiser is a drooler 45/9 or something that I've been isoing liberally. 4better is a 18/3 who I have never seen 3bet in 81 opportunities.
 
TylerN

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fx20736 said:
I have never folded KK preflop in a cash game. There have been a few instances when I was pretty sure I was against AA but I can't see laying it down. I checked my stats on PT for KK:

KK

Dealt 234 times
win pct: 88.46%
win rate 3.63 bb/ hand

I ran into AA 4 times and lost and lost to Ax several other times. It doesn't show how often I cracked AA with KK but I know of once for sure, possibly twice.



compare that with my stats for AA:

AA
Dealt 231 times
win pct: 96.54%
win rate 6.06 bb/ hand


QQ is a distant third

QQ
Dealt 237 times
win pct: 81.01%
win rate 1.05 bb/ hand

In other words when OOP I am now happy to just collect the blinds with QQ (or any pocket pair below it). When I am re-raised OOP by an unknown villain or known TAG villain with a 3bet% under 4% I will fold QQ without too much difficulty.
Click to expand...

How did u know those stats? i really not up to date with the poker things that can be used
 
DetroitJimmy

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WVHillbilly said:
This is the one I should have folded:

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $109.35
UTG: $131.60
Hero (UTG+1): $101.00
MP: $131.30
MP+1: $108.75
CO: $103.50
BTN: $98.65
SB: $235.40

SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has K♥ K♣

UTG raises to $2.00, Hero raises to $8.00, fold, MP+1 raises to $24.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero knows he's ****ed but shoves anyway, MP+1 calls $77.00

Flop: ($205.50, 2 players) 3♣ 9♠ 8♣

Turn: ($205.50, 2 players) 5♥

River: ($205.50, 2 players) Q♦

Hero shows K♥ K♣ (One Pair, Kings)
MP+1 shows A♦ A♣ (One Pair, Aces)
MP+1 wins $202.50


UTG min raiser is a drooler 45/9 or something that I've been isoing liberally. 4better is a 18/3 who I have never seen 3bet in 81 opportunities.
Click to expand...

No three bet stats and I would have done the same and thought the same as I did it. 3% PF is tight so ya almost have to think his 4 betting range is tighter but I guess ya never know without a HUGE sample.

Perhaps one day in a deepstack cash game I will toss KK PF. I don't see it happening too soon though.
 
GotaLovePoke

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I don't see folding KK a valuable situation..... EVER.....

Often enough I don't consider folding QQ (cash game)
 
WVHillbilly

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DetroitJimmy said:
No three bet stats and I would have done the same and thought the same as I did it. 3% PF is tight so ya almost have to think his 4 betting range is tighter but I guess ya never know without a HUGE sample.

Perhaps one day in a deepstack cash game I will toss KK PF. I don't see it happening too soon though.
Click to expand...

Think you misunderstood the stats I posted his PFR was only 3% total. His 3bet% was zero!
 
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fx20736

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GotaLovePoke said:
I don't see folding KK a valuable situation..... EVER.....

Often enough I don't consider folding QQ (cash game)
Click to expand...

Not sure what stakes you are playing at but at the micros, one of the hardest lessons to learnis the true value of QQ when OOP.

It ain't much.

If you're willing to risk your stack with QQ vs an unknown villain who 3bets you then you are going to lose some money.
 
DetroitJimmy

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WVHillbilly said:
Think you misunderstood the stats I posted his PFR was only 3% total. His 3bet% was zero!
Click to expand...

Wow. Was that 0% out of 81 3-bet? If so, I see why you cringed as you pushed.

I can see it now. Its probably the same thing going through my head. Something like " I KNOW he has aces, but I HOPE maybe he has KK also or maybe even AKs." Even though I "know" he has aces, I will push each and every time.
 
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Listen, if you get dealt KK in rush poker, thank god and put your money in. If your opponent has AA, then you just got unlucky. It happens
 
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baudib1

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In 6-max games I stack JJ+/AK pre regularly and am starting to add TT/99 and AQs if the dynamic is right.

FR I'd just open fold QQ pre or raise and hope to steal the blinds.
 
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MRROWLEY

DetroitJimmy said:
I am bringing this up because I have been playing a lot of Rush 10nl FR. It seems like whenever I am up against a player with no good notes or reads(which is often the case on Rush) my KK is against AA most of the time I get it in PF.

Sometimes I swear I "know" he has aces. For example I am dealt KK in EP and make a standard 3x BB raise. get 3-bet from MP. LP 4-bets. Don't most of the time one of these guys hold aces? What if it is 5 bet? I have never laid down KK PF and was wondering if it is ever proper without reads, or ever for that matter.

BTW it seems in rush that when I do get my AA in PF, The other guy is holding KK most of the time.[/Never lay down the KK as they can beat the AA with Quads, Trips, K high flush, A high straight, and K high straight and if you start laying down cards like KK then you are already a loser. Go down fighting]:)
Click to expand...
 
DetroitJimmy

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baudib1 said:
In 6-max games I stack JJ+/AK pre regularly and am starting to add TT/99 and AQs if the dynamic is right.

FR I'd just open fold QQ pre or raise and hope to steal the blinds.
Click to expand...


Sounds like 6max is much more fun. The only thing I stack PF FR is AA and KK. Used to stack AKs. Don't really honestly know if it is proper without some killer reads to stack off with anything less in FR.

I am really just a small stakes SNG player that finally realized he sucked at postflop play. SNG's are fun but I would like to expand my skills to be a winning cash game player too. It is something I am working on now.
 
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