Flopping Top Set

P

pbacker23

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Total posts
9
Chips
0
I am curious how many of you would play flopping top set in a multi-way pot when you are out of position.

Here's my scenario: I am playing .50/$1 NL hold'em online. I have $155 at the time. I get dealt JJ in the big blind. At the time, the game is extremely juicy, plenty of pre-flop action. Fourth guy to act calls, fifth guy makes it $2, everyone calls to me. Normally, I would raise here to $14 or so but I felt everyone at the time would call so I limped hoping to hit a J. Initial limper reraises to $9. two callers and I decide to call.

Flop: J47, rainbow. I check, re-raiser makes it $25 (he has $70 left after the bet). Button flats (he has $170 left). Now, obviously I have a few options here. 1) Flat..2) make a modest raise...3) go all-in.

Both the players in the hand are good, aggressive players. I figured that the initial better either missed with AK or had an over pair, the caller had some sort of drawing hand like 56 since he just initially called the $2 min raise and would normally reraise pre-flop if he had a decent hand. I decided to go all-in. Both folded.

What do you guys think? I obviously didn't maximize but there are a lot of scare cards on the turn potentially (3,8, Q, K, A, etc) and I am out of position. Should I have made a weak lead out on the flop instead? Risk seeing the turn and lead the turn? Let me know!

For me, I was happy taking down the nearly $100 pot there.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
"I'd normally raise to $14 but I felt everyone would call so I flatted"
Lolwut. :confused:

2nd, flat flop. I don't think there are nearly as many scare cards as you make out, but if there is, worst case scenario they check call. So by flatting youll pick up an extra street in spots you wouldn't have if raised OTF, and if they would've called a raise OTF they'll call one/shove prett much all turns anywy. Not to mention PFR is going to BR super scared of sets here cos pot is 4 handed. I'm 99% sure he has an overpair here which is an EZ fold in a 4 handed lot to a shove OTF
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
By scare cards do you mean cards that kill action or cards that you are afraid of??

Even though one of your opponents most likely has an overcard, we can't really be worrying about two-outers...

Anyway, flop is probably a flat, though a raise might be okay sometimes depending on table dynamics/history. Shoving all in is always getting folds unless there is some weird meta thing going on where they will interpret a shove as a bluff... Not likely.
 
P

pbacker23

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Total posts
9
Chips
0
Scare cards as cards I am afraid of. I know the flat was probably the right play but I guess what I am saying here is what do I do on the turn? What is the proper bet? I can't imagine checking again is the smart move since it could lead to a free card on the river.

I know going all-in on the flop makes my hand look incredibly strong but I feel most players, even if they are good, have a tough time folding AA or KK there. Also, making a raise to $65-$70 I feel makes my hand look even more obvious.

And if a player is that good to fold AA there, wouldn't he slow up on the turn anyway if two people flat him in that spot on that board? And if I lead the turn, he might fold anyway because I look damn strong leading AND there is a player behind him.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
Call and re-evaluate. If it checks to us we're betting small, pot will be like $100 so we only need to bet like $40 to get stacks in easily on the river, especially if they both call. We aren't folding at any point - an overcard isn't a scare card for us because we have a set and it's really hard for them to make a higher set and it's way more likely they have a lower set/top pair/overpair than a straight draw.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
Wow, you are giving way too much credit where it isn't due. You had the nuts on the flop and for some reason assumed that would not be good enough - that it wouldn't hold up. WHY? Could there be trouble on the turn? Sure, but way many more times you have these guys buried and they don't have a clue (that is unless you shove your stack in the middle - that might tip them off).

#1 - that flop is about as dry as you could wish for.

#2 - the range on these guys is so wide at this point that you are almost 90% to win (and no, I did not pull that number out of thin air). Then if we fill the board all the way to river with nothing but scare cards you nose dive to 65%. Even if turn, river was AA you are still a favorite.

#3 - scare cards? Do you realize how many outs you have yourself?

You should have delayed being scared until the turn instead of being scared of something that had not even shown up. You're giving them the best possible hands that can beat you and failing to understand that when you range that way you have to also include the crap you have crushed.

reraiser is just as likely to have AK, AQ, AJ, as AA or KK or QQ - along with a bunch of other crap.
 
Last edited:
thebigdawg

thebigdawg

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Total posts
1,288
Chips
0
I would have raised pre-flop, after the flop though I would have made a modest raise...not much more than a min-raise ($35-$40 more.) I could see calling as well.

No shoving.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
Oh wow OP meant if Q-A peeled they're scary for him cos they might make him outsetted?

Also, no 100NL Reg is going to have to think twice about folding AA on that flop to you (if you're scarred to put your money in here I assume you never do it with draws, and other hands weaker than sets), especially when the flop is as completely dry as it is
 
P

postflopper

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Total posts
449
Chips
0
If there's ever a spot to let a free card come off on the turn, this is it. Perfect flop for u, those guys probably need runner runner to win... peel off a turn card and hope it hits somebody. Definitely bet the turn, small-ish bet like 40 so 1)if reraiser hits he's probably going in, and 2) u will still have enough behind for button to try to bluff u off your hand if he didnt hit.
 
G

GWU73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Total posts
785
Chips
0
I like to call pre flop with JJ too. Flops like this can be great because you get over pairs and smaller sets racing to get it in. In spots like this, when I have the nuts and people are putting money in, I like to raise about 2.5x the first bet. Many players will auto call a min-raise. There are also a lot of players who will shove over you. Calling is fine too if you are certain they will all fold. Personally I do not like to let the straight come in ( for no additional money)because I will not know where I am and will likely have to pay it off. The raise also is likely to commit top pair.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Not sure who you think is hitting a straight on this board in a 3bet pot...
 
G

GWU73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Total posts
785
Chips
0
I have seen it happen. Often by me; after I 3bet a tight player or squeeze with my low suited connectors. I would not fear the straight, but it is possible. That is why I would go ahead and pay it off. It makes sense to build the pot early when we know exactly where we are in the hand. The great thing about small raises is they only fold out weak hands, while coaxing medium strength hands to pot commit. For example, min raising is likely to get 2 calls on the above hand; if they improve at all, the remaining stacks are going in on the turn. Calling allows your two opponents to check fold the turn, which is a solid play for hands like TT, 88 or AK unimproved.
 
Last edited:
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
56 is like the only hand that can peel a straight OTT, and we think that one of these guys has 56 in their range why? Lmao
 
G

GWU73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Total posts
785
Chips
0
hand played is not a real 3bet pot. It is just a weak donk who tried to bloat the bot (or misclicked) and a player attempting, (and failing), to isolate pre-flop. Also, the straight is the least of the concerns, just a possibility, that needs to be recognized during the hand. And yes, I have seen a lot of straights by me and others in pots of this size. Ruling out suited connectors in a raised pot is silly. The likely range for this play includes either AQ+, QQ+ if the player was going for value, or 22+, big aces, and possibly some suited connectors and suited aces, if the player is just making a play at the pot.

The primary concern is getting money into the pot while the players think they can win. The standard line for the "3 bettor" is to c-bet the flop with atc, then only continue betting with a very strong hand because there are 2 people in the pot. By calling we only get more money from him if he has QQ+, or he hits his 2-6 "outs".

Sheessshhe people, focus on the important part. ... Squirl!
 
Top