FLOAT 3BETS

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billatx

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I'm playing ZOOM at pokerstars.What is the response when my opponents regurally call my 3bets,which i do for value,when i'm OOP and then float my bluff cbet every time with random hands?

Should i check-call when i miss flop or should i double barrel flop and turn???A 3rd option would be check-folding when i miss,but i do not like it.
 
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NoOneYouKnow

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billatx said:
I'm playing ZOOM at Pokerstars.What is the response when my opponents regurally call my 3bets,which i do for value,when i'm OOP and then float my bluff cbet every time with random hands?

Should i check-call when i miss flop or should i double barrel flop and turn???A 3rd option would be check-folding when i miss,but i do not like it.
Click to expand...

Why are you cbetting? Each situation is different, and this is the question you need to ask every time you want to cbet.
 
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billatx

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NoOneYouKnow said:
Why are you cbetting? Each situation is different, and this is the question you need to ask every time you want to cbet.
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Should i ever double barrel bluff a 3bet pot?I know that he would float any dry flop.Should i continue at the turn,no matter what the turn is?Should i do it only if a face card appeared?Or should i never double barrel a 3 bet pot?
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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how do you know that he's floating, he could just have a hand.

most people's 3 bet calling ranges consists of a lot of pairs.. he could think he has the best hand, which apparently he does if you only have A high.
 
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billatx

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Campbell92 said:
how do you know that he's floating, he could just have a hand.

most people's 3 bet calling ranges consists of a lot of pairs.. he could think he has the best hand, which apparently he does if you only have A high.
Click to expand...

Agree,but wouldn't double barreling make him throw medium stregth hands?
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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what limits do you play?
 
The Messiah

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Not an expert in zoom poker or cash for that matter but imo,

Your not that specific as regards how many play at your table,positions etc.but il try and give a general answer.

stop 3 betting OOP with below average hands,just call to see a flop.
if you do 3 bet OOP make a check-raise on a dry board and lead turn with a card <10.
if it goes check-check,then check-raise turn with a card >10

This way the only way i can see a person calling you is if they have a set or are after catching 2 pair from the turn and thats that,.This is just something to try,obv if you hit your flop u can c-bet,personally im not a fan of zoom because of the crowd it attracts so havent studied it but your obv posting as your having trouble with the 25nl so your either being out played or you need to be more/less aggressive.do you have a HUD,what are your stats.?if you have other areas where you might be finding trouble just post up some hands,pos and just be more specific,this will lead to specific anwsers,

Best of luck
 
Shwiggler

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There is an excellent c-betting video in Leak Buster that goes over this. It explains well what you should look out for when c-betting and how to combat a 3bet behind you. It does a good job a breaking it down by stakes also.
 
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billatx

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Shwiggler said:
There is an excellent c-betting video in Leak Buster that goes over this. It explains well what you should look out for when c-betting and how to combat a 3bet behind you. It does a good job a breaking it down by stakes also.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
 
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billatx said:
I'm playing ZOOM at Pokerstars.What is the response when my opponents regurally call my 3bets,which i do for value,when i'm OOP and then float my bluff cbet every time with random hands?

Should i check-call when i miss flop or should i double barrel flop and turn???A 3rd option would be check-folding when i miss,but i do not like it.
Click to expand...

So a couple of things:
1) You say you're 3-betting for value. Value in no-limit is somewhat relative because even though equity wise you may be ahead of your opponents range with an unpaired hand pre-flop, the value of position increases the value of your opponents hand enough to negate your slight pre-flop edge. Take a common example of you having AQo vs T9s. You have a 60/40 edge pre, but against an opponent who doesn't fold to 3-bets and floats, your edge is gone post flop. It's a losing situation.

So does that mean you should just call? Of course not, but it is one option. Another option is continue to increase your 3-bet size until you find your fold equity point. "Solving the hand pre-flop" against this type of opponent is better than wasting 20-25 bbs.

2) There's some spots where you will have position on him. Polarize your 3-betting range against him more in position and force him into tougher spots so you can makeup for the times you have to check/fold OOP when you whiff.

3) Final option is to take some higher variance lines where you are 3-betting pre-flop smaller, just to take the initiative, and then either CRing the flop (depending on texture), or c/cing and then potting the turn. This will let him know that he can't just float against you. I don't advise this line without good reads.

Just some ideas/suggestions.
 
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billatx

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John A said:
So a couple of things:
1) You say you're 3-betting for value. Value in no-limit is somewhat relative because even though equity wise you may be ahead of your opponents range with an unpaired hand pre-flop, the value of position increases the value of your opponents hand enough to negate your slight pre-flop edge. Take a common example of you having AQo vs T9s. You have a 60/40 edge pre, but against an opponent who doesn't fold to 3-bets and floats, your edge is gone post flop. It's a losing situation.

So does that mean you should just call? Of course not, but it is one option. Another option is continue to increase your 3-bet size until you find your fold equity point. "Solving the hand pre-flop" against this type of opponent is better than wasting 20-25 bbs.

2) There's some spots where you will have position on him. Polarize your 3-betting range against him more in position and force him into tougher spots so you can makeup for the times you have to check/fold OOP when you whiff.

3) Final option is to take some higher variance lines where you are 3-betting pre-flop smaller, just to take the initiative, and then either CRing the flop (depending on texture), or c/cing and then potting the turn. This will let him know that he can't just float against you. I don't advise this line without good reads.

Just some ideas/suggestions.
Click to expand...

Everything is very usefull!But i can't understand what exactly you mean by number 2.Can you explain it better?
 
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billatx

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billatx said:
Everything is very usefull!But i can't understand what exactly you mean by number 2.Can you explain it better?
Click to expand...

Also on 3,which boards are apropriate to check raise after the 3 bet and which to check -call ,bet turn?
 
TheGenera1

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Never double barrel bluff 3 bet pots on zoom. The times that you are up against a real hand when called on the flop, far outweigh the times you come up against a spewtard who cant fold. Cbet on the flop and throw the hand away unimproved. Think of it as money saved. You win more in your next big pot, because you didn't lose lots in this one.

You should also stop 3betting oop with weak holdings. AK and JJ+ thats it. There really is no need to 3bet with anything else. C bet with AK and check fold turn.
 
John A

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billatx said:
Everything is very usefull!But i can't understand what exactly you mean by number 2.Can you explain it better?
Click to expand...

You begin 3-betting with higher frequency in position with a more polarized range, so that you don't have to 3-bet as often with your marginally good hands out of position as often. Apply more pressure to him when you have position. Hard to do in zoom though because you're moving around, but...
 
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billatx

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John A said:
You begin 3-betting with higher frequency in position with a more polarized range, so that you don't have to 3-bet as often with your marginally good hands out of position as often. Apply more pressure to him when you have position. Hard to do in zoom though because you're moving around, but...
Click to expand...

Why do i want to 3 bet polarized someone who will likely call my 3 bets AND floats them when he has position,when i have position?Is the only reason to steal the 3bet pots on flop or is there something else i'm missing?

Wouldn't the fact that he floats me postflop when i'm OOP mean that he will probably like to call my flop bet when i'm IP?
 
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billatx said:
Why do i want to 3 bet polarized someone who will likely call my 3 bets AND floats them when he has position,when i have position?Is the only reason to steal the 3bet pots on flop or is there something else i'm missing?

Wouldn't the fact that he floats me postflop when i'm OOP mean that he will probably like to call my flop bet when i'm IP?
Click to expand...

No, it's less likely he will float you OOP. It's really difficult to profitably float someone in a 3-bet pot OOP. This is just one strategy to try. Flat some of your decent range hands like AJs,AQo, etc.. OOP, and open up your 3-bets in position- i e K9s, A5o, etc...
 
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billatx

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John A said:
No, it's less likely he will float you OOP. It's really difficult to profitably float someone in a 3-bet pot OOP. This is just one strategy to try. Flat some of your decent range hands like AJs,AQo, etc.. OOP, and open up your 3-bets in position- i e K9s, A5o, etc...
Click to expand...

First of all thanks for your time for answering my questions!

Secondly,why do i want to flat OOP with AJs+?
Wouldn't it be better against that opponent to 3bet them OOP and bet flop only if i hit to earn some value?
 
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billatx said:
First of all thanks for your time for answering my questions!

Secondly,why do i want to flat OOP with AJs+?
Wouldn't it be better against that opponent to 3bet them OOP and bet flop only if i hit to earn some value?
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

One of the suggested strategies is to flat those hands because you're having difficulty with opponents "floating" you when you're OOP in 3-bet pots, and then open up your 3-betting range against those same opponents IP. So one of the countering strategies is what I'm suggesting (1 of 3). What works best depends on your stake level, your reads, etc...

Think about it this way. If your opponents are indeed floating you in 3-bet pots when you're OOP (and I didn't even ask why you think that's the case), then you are likely spending about 20-25bbs on average just to c/f the turn (when you whiff). When you do flat a reasonable 3-betting hand like AQo when you're OOP you can get your opponent to bet the flop with a lot of worse Ax hands and air (where you kill their equity usually). You can also c/f, or make cheaper c/r bluffs on the flop with those hands.

Then when you open up your 3-betting range IP against these opponents, a decent amount of time (lets say roughly 50%) you will pick up 4-5bbs without seeing a flop, X% of time they will call (say 40%) and you'll have position (so much more profitable), and Y% of the time you'll have to fold to a 4-bet (say 10%).

It's just ONE counter strategy to employ.
 
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The solution is pretty simple. Just tighten up your 3betting from the blinds against that player. Chances are they are either a) calling 3bets fairly loose and getting sticky with hands like 77-JJ or overcards post flop or b) they perceive you to have a wide 3bet range in that spot.

See what happens when you 3bet a range of QQ+ against them. If they keep floating you're going to wind up raping them. By tightening up your 3bet range you also strengthen your flatting range and wind up dominating a wide steal range a lot of the time.

Another thing to remember is that if they are calling your 3bets and betting the turn after you check all the time then start check raising or check calling the turn with the top of your range. Doing this will strengthen your checking range on the turn dramatically. Combined with having a tighter 3bet range preflop, it'll become very profitable for you whenever he decides to float you. Keep doing it until he adjusts and when (if) he does, then go back to doing what you were doing before you posted the op.
 
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TheBowlBoy said:
The solution is pretty simple. Just tighten up your 3betting from the blinds against that player. Chances are they are either a) calling 3bets fairly loose and getting sticky with hands like 77-JJ or overcards post flop or b) they perceive you to have a wide 3bet range in that spot.

See what happens when you 3bet a range of QQ+ against them. If they keep floating you're going to wind up raping them. By tightening up your 3bet range you also strengthen your flatting range and wind up dominating a wide steal range a lot of the time.

Another thing to remember is that if they are calling your 3bets and betting the turn after you check all the time then start check raising or check calling the turn with the top of your range. Doing this will strengthen your checking range on the turn dramatically. Combined with having a tighter 3bet range preflop, it'll become very profitable for you whenever he decides to float you. Keep doing it until he adjusts and when (if) he does, then go back to doing what you were doing before you posted the op.
Click to expand...

This is a great post except for the fact that OP is playing Zoom. So the answer is to stop playing Zoom and to play regular poker where you can at least build up reads/history with players so that there's a point to the metagame and there's adjusting going on.

If you are having trouble with standard spots vs. unknowns, play against people you know something about.
 
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I'd say its pretty easy to develop reads with the regulars on Zoom if you're putting in decent volume. If you're 4 tabling it you should be getting into lots of spots with the regs there. After re-reading the OP, I'm not sure if he means certain players regularly or repeatedly floating his cbets or if he means players in general seem to be doing it.

If its the former then my advice should still apply. In the case of the latter, then you do make a good point.

I tried Zoom when it came out and I hate it. Actually, I was at Stars HQ in the board room at the moment it went live. I like to table select, start tables and most of all play shorthanded on fullring tables. 3-4 handed with a fish, a whale and a bad reg is the nuts!
 
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You could tighten your 3betting range and raise your bet size so you are likely way ahead and can easily decide wether or not to commit on the flop. It is very straight forward, but effective for building pots against bad players. The good players will look at your stats and fold. Who wants to play them anyway.
 
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