flatting ranges to 3 bets OOP vs regs (tl;dr, includes 1/2 a HH)

OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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just wondering where the bottom of our range should be?

a lot of this will be rambling as well, since I was thinking it over today and want to get this all out in one place so its out of my head.. (maybe thats weird? I dunno)

this is in spots vs regs where they have a polarised range IP, and our range includes some steals as well.. so most likely:

vs a 20/16, 3b of 6

pokerstars - $0.50 PL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG+1: $80.23
MP: $56.12
MP+1: $20.00
Hero (CO): $50.00
BTN: $56.95
SB: $40.00
BB: $50.00
UTG: $21.50

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has Js As

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $4.50, fold, fold,

Hero?

my thoughts (prob basic):

I think a lot of regs are going to be unbalanced towards bluffs in these kind of spots as well, nits naturally unbalanced the other way.. but we aren't going to be flatting hands OOP to them ever.

we don't want to flat hands with hot/cold equity like 44 etc since we give up on too many flops/turns(?)

hands like JJ/TT seem ok to flat since we can continue on flops and flopping sets makes up for the times we run into the top of their range..

and most regs are straightforward in 3bet pots.. so we can flat these as long as we can get away from weakish overpairs facing serious pressure.

but isn't this the exact range people put us on when we raise from say MP and then flat a 3 bet? so then they can play perfectly against us..

suited broadway seems solid to call but hands like JTs could get us in some difficult spots OOP on turns since when we flop something its likely to include some kind of backdoor draw.. which could end up with us getting to rivers and then having to let go when we brick (which can't be +ev?), assuming most regs at 10/25/50(?) don't triple barrel bluff often enough to making heroing off profitable.

AK/AQ should be flats some of the time to keep us balanced but we're likely not going to get much value when we do hit and are ahead, at most it'll be 2 streets.. and the river bet will have to be somewhat small to induce hero calls.

Axx boards people are going to let go of a lot on unless the flop/turn/river a better hand right?

and we can't let go of A high on dry flops which means trying to get cheap showdowns OOP and hoping its good, or bluffing them off second/bottom pair on rivers.


...


I kinda want to make my OOP flatting range the same as my old nittyish UTG range 99+ AQo+ with AJs and maybe some other hands that flop well (semi-bluffs?)

It just feels like if their range is full of bluffs then we have to bluff/float postflop OOP even more to make flatting profitable?

...

but yeah, back to the question, what are you lots ranges for flatting OOP?

'don't flat 3bets OOP' doesn't count as a valid answer either.. :rolleyes:

opinions on my other thoughts would be welcome, thanks.

:viking:
 
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ScottishMatt

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TBH I think that is a decent range. If I ever call a 3 bet OOP I always prefer suited cards, the flush possibilities are great back up. The only thing I struggle with in being OOP is when to take the pot away?

Being pretty inexperienced I tend to lean towards being passive when out of position, so it normally goes check/bet/call - check/check - bet/?(I guess he is calling most hands he hit with and folding everything else)

Problem seems to be that he will be checking back the turn a whole lot, does that mean we should call the flop then lead the turn? Or check raise the flop? (knowing that he will bet every dry board other than maybe 9-J-7 or something similar)
 
JCgrind

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firstly, i assume youre referring to situations in which ESS is 100bb.

i agree that we should be 4bing most of our low-mid PPs OOP, but i think sometimes 4bing and sometimes calling TT/JJ is much better than just auto doing one or the other. yes JJ/TT is the exact range theyll put us on when we flat the 3b OOP, which is why we sometimes 4b it, and is why we sometimes flat AA/KK aswell. i think you pretty much have to 4b AK, but i think most of the time id be flatting AQs and just insta folding AQo to the 3b and not worrying too much about it.

against these kind of guys, a strategy that works for me when we call the AK/AQ/Ax whatever OOP is to donk/min 3b the flop. it kinda seemly like an expensive waste, but it gets through sooooooo much of the time, and there arent a whole lot of players who are capable of floating it w air and/or4b bluff shoving. again, balance this out by doing the same think when you flat the 3b w AA/KK, when you flop a set etc.

as for actually giving you a specific range to flat vs this type of guy OOP with, i hate doing it because theres no way i dont feel the need to change it after playing with the guy for 10minutes. but i think a decent starting point would be 88-JJ, AJs-AQs, 9Ts-KQs.

ugh but yeah i wanna 4b a lot of those hands a lot of the time 100bbs deep. this is hard lol. just donk or ch/r a lot of flops when you miss completely, establish how he deals with it, make him adjust, revert to only donking or ch/ring when you flop big, crush his soul
 
Ducky7

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JC you want to just fold AQo to a 3b from someone with a polarised range, think what hes asking is for marginal hands that we can sometime call with and be profitable if they are 3b'ing a polarised range, and ye 100BB deep
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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yay someone replied! (100bb deep obv)

80 views and no posts, thanks CC -.-

dunno about folding AQo, might be over valuing the hand but it seems too strong to fold to someone with a polarised range, and makes it less likely he'll have something strong since I have an A + Q.

just went over my db and flatting 3bets OOP seems to be losing me a load of money, but thats mainly coz when I get it in its like AK > AA on Kxx flops etc..

and when we are ahead we win small/mid size pots.. can we ever make this +ev or is it a matter of making it less -ev than folding every time..
 
acky100

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vs a guy with a 3bet of like 6% co vs btn folding AJs is totally reasonable.
 
WVHillbilly

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yay someone replied! (100bb deep obv)

80 views and no posts, thanks CC -.-

dunno about folding AQo, might be over valuing the hand but it seems too strong to fold to someone with a polarised range, and makes it less likely he'll have something strong since I have an A + Q.

just went over my db and flatting 3bets OOP seems to be losing me a load of money, but thats mainly coz when I get it in its like AK > AA on Kxx flops etc..

and when we are ahead we win small/mid size pots.. can we ever make this +ev or is it a matter of making it less -ev than folding every time..
Folding AQ (s or o) against a 6% 3bet range should be standard, especially OOP.

The problem isn't how it does against his range pre. The problem is how it plays post.
 
JCgrind

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Choopnalysis ftw. Christ though WV, if we aren't flatting AQs that guy even IP wtf are we flatting with?!

Yeah it's just that if we call AQo OOP, we get owned by AK when we peel the A, and if he doesn't have an A we win a flop Cbet (which is probably only going to be around 11/12bbs anyway), and when we hit the Q we often get 2 streets value, but we get ****ed when we run into the top of his range.
So ye basically vs a polarised range we never win any money with it when we hit. If anything we should be 4b/folding it cos of the blockers IMO but ye just dump it. If folding it hurts your soul too much add more tables lol
 
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JCgrind

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Or you could just play deep ante tables like me so that flatting 3bs with like anything is no longer a leak :)
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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this was a bad example.

the regs i'm on about are ones with 10-20% 3bets (some even higher) so its likely we're going to be 3 bet IP a ton, hate folding AQ vs that range

this guy was more on the tighter reg side obv.

choop, if we're 4betting AQ are we doing it as a bluff or for value? since thats exactly what a polirsed 3 bet wants.. for us to 4bet or fold.
 
WVHillbilly

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this was a bad example.

the regs i'm on about are ones with 10-20% 3bets (some even higher) so its likely we're going to be 3 bet IP a ton, hate folding AQ vs that range

this guy was more on the tighter reg side obv.

choop, if we're 4betting AQ are we doing it as a bluff or for value? since thats exactly what a polirsed 3 bet wants.. for us to 4bet or fold.
Not really. It really wants you to call and play fit or fold on the flop.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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that too.

but aren't we bluffing some flops anyway? assuming we aren't playing fit or fold post, which I said in the OP we shouldn't be doing..
 
JCgrind

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You also said that his 3b was 6% though. If its like 22% and you're OOP were 4b jamming ATC and telling him in the chat box to sit the **** down lol

If his 4b is 6% then just over double his 3b (to about 20/22bbs) half the time as a bluff with blockers and the other half with AA/KK/AK. He can't flat you, so you put him in the dumb spot of playing vs a polarized range. He folds, you win, he jams you have an easy decision. He's folding more than he's 5b jamming. So do it half and half and you can't lose.

EDIT: if he does start calling your 4bs Plz god don't open shove flops coz any pair is calling
 
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JCgrind

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If he gets too spaz when you 4b, just start flatting the 3b and check tank jamming every flop
 
Ducky7

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He can't flat you, so you put him in the dumb spot of playing vs a polarized range

People flat all the time its lols, even OOP they do it, well its happened to me anyway. But thats bad for them not me obv, just saying people do it a fair bit, especially IP

Just fyi i think what Campbell is saying is why turn AQ into a bluff by 4b'ing it when we can get value from the lower part of his range, and get him to bluff stacks off to us? I think? (probs worded that terribly and sound like a fish ha)
 
JCgrind

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Well yeah, when I said he can't flat you I meant he shouldn't, but if he does lol then own him bc of how incredibly fit or fold hell be.

Honestly, bc flatting AQo is very close to neutral EV IMO unless villain plays super bad. Bluffing it IMO is far more profitable
 
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