Flatting ACES......

vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
I've been playing some 10NL(ZOOM) lately and ive noticed that 99% of the time if someone 4bets, they have either kings or aces but most of the time aces. ( so if someone 4bets me and he is really tight, i might throw away kings in a few cases due to this)

Ive also noticed that when someone 3bets me when i have aces and i 4bet, they usually fold.



So i have started flatting 3bets with aces in order to get more out of them postflop and in order to avoid scarring them off. Is this bad?

When do we want to be flatting aces in order to maximize value from them?

opinions?
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
Here, let me give you a little example of what i mean. Had i 5bet here i think he would have folded cause when they min4bet alot of the times they do it to see where you are at.


pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($24.18)
SB ($3.19)
Hero (BB) ($11.70)
UTG ($10.10)
MP ($10)
CO ($11.92)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A
heart.gif
, A
diamond.gif

UTG raises to $0.30, 1 fold, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, UTG raises to $2.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.35) 4
diamond.gif
, K
heart.gif
, 5
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $9.20 (All-In), UTG calls $7.60 (All-In)

Turn: ($20.55) J
club.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($20.55) Q
club.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $20.55 | Rake: $0.92

Results below:
Hero had A
heart.gif
, A
diamond.gif
(one pair, Aces).
UTG had K
club.gif
, A
club.gif
(one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $19.63
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
That hand example is pretty horrible imo. Why would you shove the flop into him? I just don't get your play there at all.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
cause i put him on ak and wanted to get it in right then and there. standard play in 4bet pots IMO. I mean i also could have went for half pot but that looks too strong,---"semi commiting myself that obviously". I think the snap shove gets paid off better in these spots.( due to the preflop dynamics and my flatting his 4bet making me look even weaker).
 
B

bernotas22

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
Total posts
1,520
Chips
0
I think it seems like a good strategy, you played it unorthodox but in a good way , I wonder how this type of strategy with AA would hold up long term at this level of zoom, Seems great unless they are set mining and happen to hit it somehow, But against a lot of ranges if you are slow playing AA like this you most likely would still be ahead, I may be wrong though hopefully someone comes around who knows more than me and confirms whether this is good long term to maximize value with AA or if it is just a situational type of play you can use
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Why lead at all on the flop? I mean I don't like flatting pre but if I did I'd certainly let the preflop 4bettor have the chance to bet that flop.
 
SANDYHOOKER KY

SANDYHOOKER KY

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Total posts
382
Chips
0
Flat calling, then shoving post flop seems to me to defeat the purpose of flat calling in the first place. Might as well have shoved pre flop. The flop looked dry to me, and was rainbow. Villian could have set of kings, which is unlikely, or open end draw. I agree with Hillbilly, let villian bet, then make your move.
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Total posts
7,111
Chips
0
Flat calling, then shoving post flop seems to me to defeat the purpose of flat calling in the first place.

^ This times 1 mirrion

Shoving that flop is just not profitable at all imo. Why in the world would you do that? If you actually had him on AK than don't you think he would certainly call your 4-bet? or even shove over you pre?

Be happy when people fold to your 4-bets. Take the money and keep doing it without second guessing it. Your losing lots of profit by flatting as well as giving opponents chances to crack them for free (essentially).
 
R

RickH1983

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Total posts
319
Chips
0
^ This times 1 mirrion

Shoving that flop is just not profitable at all imo. Why in the world would you do that? If you actually had him on AK than don't you think he would certainly call your 4-bet? or even shove over you pre?

Be happy when people fold to your 4-bets. Take the money and keep doing it without second guessing it. Your losing lots of profit by flatting as well as giving opponents chances to crack them for free (essentially).
I see people shove all the time with ak in 1/2 games this is like a 10 cent game of course people are going to shove with ak.
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Total posts
7,111
Chips
0
I see people shove all the time with ak in 1/2 games this is like a 10 cent game of course people are going to shove with ak.

....did you even read my post that you quoted? ....i said people would shove with AK......sooo your point is?
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
I see people shove all the time with ak in 1/2 games this is like a 10 cent game of course people are going to shove with ak.


Its a ten cent game but not too many people are comfortably shoving 100BB with ak. trust me on that . Not about the money, its about whether or not its worth it (winratewise)
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
Why lead at all on the flop? I mean I don't like flatting pre but if I did I'd certainly let the preflop 4bettor have the chance to bet that flop.



Cause im thinking that a checkraise will get a fold , """when a donk shove looks desperate."""" and might get more calls...?
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Total posts
7,111
Chips
0
Its a ten cent game but not too many people are comfortably shoving 100BB with ak. trust me on that . Not about the money, its about whether or not its worth it (winratewise)

I gotta disagree. I think there are more people who will shove with AK than there are people that won't at 25NL and lower (that's all i have played).

Having played hundreds of thousands of hands at 10NL i can say the above statement with 100% certainty
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
I gotta disagree. I think there are more people who will shove with AK than there are people that won't at 25NL and lower (that's all i have played).

Having played hundreds of thousands of hands at 10NL i can say the above statement with 100% certainty


I havent really looked at stats but if you say so, i'll take your word for it.

I still dont run into too many AK when i get 4bet shoved pre though. It seems to me that lately people are tightening up alot.

Don't forget im talking strictly about ZOOM poker on stars. and over there they are pretty descent players especially during the weekdays. Due to the nittiness of zoom, ak isnt too much of a nutty hand when people can just snap fold anytime.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
What would you say the average 3BET % is at these games?
 
L

loomis311

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Total posts
173
Chips
0
flatting 3 bets with aces can be fine, but you have to consider some things before you do it. what is your table image like? is it aggressive? the more aggressive you are, the better your chances of getting paid off with a 4bet. but on the flip side, calling with your aces and not stacking somebody because of bad board runoff is also really bad.

what is your opponents table image? the more loose aggressive he is the better it is to flat aces because he will not be able to call a 4 bet. the more nitty he is the better it is to raise because he will also have a good hand.

and as stated above, i would not shove into a dry flop after calling aces. yes the play is unorthodox and does not really make sense which will get you looked up lighter. however, i believe you will make more money either flatting the flop or putting in a small check raise.
 
RodneyC86

RodneyC86

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Total posts
592
Chips
0
I flat aces against 3bet Agrotards in position all the time to keep their junk in and get their cbet too. They will be still be behind like almost all the time otf anyways. IMO It's worth the risk of them binking some thing huge some time with what is likely 2 under cards to your aces, JUST so you get to pick up 10 -12 extra bb from the obligatory cbet. The times he stack you off with a blinked 2pair,trips or set would be so rare (less than 1 in 10 for sure, binking 2 pair is ultra rare) that it's worth putt your aces at risk for the 10 bb against these guys.

What's more, aces do no draw dead against two pairs at all. It still has 20 pct equity against a flop that was something no short of a miracle for them.

But I don't mess with QQ and KK though, these I 4 bet most of the time if not all but once in my entire 100k hands at 10nl.

Against a nit with 3bet of 3 pct or less. Just 4b for value, especially if you have been fairly aggressive.
 
R

RickH1983

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Total posts
319
Chips
0
....did you even read my post that you quoted? ....i said people would shove with AK......sooo your point is?
I apologize I miss read. I was all hopped up on NyQuil
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
I flat aces against 3bet Agrotards in position all the time to keep their junk in and get their cbet too. They will be still be behind like almost all the time otf anyways. IMO It's worth the risk of them binking some thing huge some time with what is likely 2 under cards to your aces, JUST so you get to pick up 10 -12 extra bb from the obligatory cbet. The times he stack you off with a blinked 2pair,trips or set would be so rare (less than 1 in 10 for sure, binking 2 pair is ultra rare) that it's worth putt your aces at risk for the 10 bb against these guys.

What's more, aces do no draw dead against two pairs at all. It still has 20 pct equity against a flop that was something no short of a miracle for them.

But I don't mess with QQ and KK though, these I 4 bet most of the time if not all but once in my entire 100k hands at 10nl.

Against a nit with 3bet of 3 pct or less. Just 4b for value, especially if you have been fairly aggressive.

Exactly. Thats why i do it. While 4 tabling zoom you get to play 1000 hands an hour so you get to see alot of aces. everytime i flat them and then pick it up postflop,it seems as though i get better value than just trying to get it in pre because the chances of them having a stack off type of hand are slim so we kind of burn money by scarring them off with a 4 bet.

And especially if the 3bettor is on the button.!!!!(with an aggro image or a high 3bet percentage)
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
I think exploiting them by flatting monsters vs 3bets (or 4betting more) is a reasonable idea - if certain regs are 3betting light and folding nicely to 4bets that is. 4% 3bet is tight though, and looks like mostly value, so I would not be ****ing about with AA and 4bet it (assuming they GII pre with AK/QQ+ like all good chart readers should ;)).

The hand though. Leading that flop with a jam relies on you essentially coolering him. I check there 100% if I flat the 3bet pre.
 
dolchinkov

dolchinkov

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Total posts
71
Awards
1
Chips
1
i do this today with Aces.The guy put 3bet i push him 5bet,he calls and the flop is: 7hQs6s, after that i put All-in and he call me, whatever he has Qd6d
and i lose.Same shit with kings, i hate when i lose with top pair.
 
RodneyC86

RodneyC86

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Total posts
592
Chips
0
Q

i do this today with Aces.The guy put 3bet i push him 5bet,he calls and the flop is: 7hQs6s, after that i put All-in and he call me, whatever he has Qd6d
and i lose.Same shit with kings, i hate when i lose with top pair.

Please stick to the matter of this topic. This belongs to the BBV forum. TQ
 
Top