FL-How to play on the flop against a very aggressive player?

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str8

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If I am on the button, I am playing against a very aggressive player, and I hit top pair what to do?
Suppose I have a hand like AT. I am on the button, 2 players limp and I raise. They both call. The flop is A 6 2 rainbow. One of the limpers is a very aggressive player. If they both check to me, should I check behind? If I'm playing against a very aggressive player, he will bet any turn card and I can trap him on the turn. The plan is to check the flop and to raise his turn bet. Is this a good plan?
I am speaking about Fixed Limit, no NL.
 
KardKlub

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Most aggressive player will bet the flop knowing that if there first in they can usually take down the pot there and then.

1 high card and 2 low cards is a perfect flop for them as the chances of the high card being yours is slim.

If an aggressive player was to check, id tread with caution. I'd certainly bet out after the flop so as to protect my top pair but i'd try to control the pot size there after if i was called again.
 
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Sonic_x_Reducer

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In this scenario you are first to act so if you check the flop and they check behind you then you have to check the turn first, have them bet and then check-raise them....the problem is you have a third person in on the hand that my be drawing to a gutshot or may catch a draw or improve their hand for free on the turn. If it's just you and an aggressive player then maybe your strategy will get you more money, but always bet out if you think you have the best hand and there are 2 or more people left to act.
 
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munkie

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Against an aggressive player, if they don't bet the flop, you should. Simple as that.
 
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str8

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The reason I asked this question is because this example is from the book Holdem Poker for Advanced Players.
page 204: "When you are last to act and you are against an extremely aggressive player you should slowplay some hands that don't seem to merit this strategy. For example, suppose you start with A
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T
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and the flop is A
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6
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2
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two people check, you are last to act, and one of your opponents is an extremely aggressive player. You should always check, whether you raised or just called preflop, because no matter what comes off, the extremely aggressive player will bet it on fourth street."
 
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If the other two players checked to you and you have top pair with a decent kicker, I'd bet, especially if there were two cards to a straight or flush on the flop. At that point, you can't allow a free card and would be happy to take down the pot right now. In Limit poker the bet is going to double after the Turn, so you could theoretically let one free card peel off if it was a ragged flop. If you bet and are called by both players, that's a pretty good sign that one or both of them have an Ace and you could be in kicker trouble. Since they will expect you bet after the Turn, they will likely check to you and, unless you hit your 10, you can also check. In this case, your Flop bet earned you a free River Card. If the River card does not complete a straight, flush, and is lower than your 10 and does not pair the board, you might bet the River. But, frankly I'd be happy to check it down and hope my kicker was good.
 
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KDS63

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I agree mostly with what Ranger390 says, but my problem with the scenario (and with the solution provided by the book) is that if you check after the flop, you have no idea where you are. Then aggro bets on the turn... OK, he's aggressive, but an aggressive player can flop 2 pair (A-6 or A-2?) or hit something on the turn just like anyone else. It's cheaper to bet the flop to see where you are and maybe push out #3 player... and perhaps even take it down right there without having to depend on a mediocre kicker.
 
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str8

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If the other two players checked to you and you have top pair with a decent kicker, I'd bet, especially if there were two cards to a straight or flush on the flop. At that point, you can't allow a free card and would be happy to take down the pot right now. In Limit poker the bet is going to double after the Turn, so you could theoretically let one free card peel off if it was a ragged flop. If you bet and are called by both players, that's a pretty good sign that one or both of them have an Ace and you could be in kicker trouble. Since they will expect you bet after the Turn, they will likely check to you and, unless you hit your 10, you can also check. In this case, your Flop bet earned you a free River Card. If the River card does not complete a straight, flush, and is lower than your 10 and does not pair the board, you might bet the River. But, frankly I'd be happy to check it down and hope my kicker was good.

I also bet this flop 100% of time, and I consider the advice from HPFAP a very bad advice. But even if they both call me, I will continue to value-bet the turn and river. I never take a free River card. Maybe in NL, but not in FL. I'm speaking about today's games though, where limpers often mean loose players. When HPFAP was written there were a lot of weak-tight players. Unless the players are weak-tight(very rare in today's games) I also bet the turn and the river. The reason is the following: loose players will not call only with Ace or better on the flop but they will also call a lot of smaller pairs. It's too weak to bet the river only when it doesn't complete a str8, flush, and is lower than 10. And I wouldn't be happy to take down this small pot on the flop. Maybe if it was bigger, yes. I'm not happy if they fold hands weaker than mine.
 
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str8

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I agree mostly with what Ranger390 says, but my problem with the scenario (and with the solution provided by the book) is that if you check after the flop, you have no idea where you are. Then aggro bets on the turn... OK, he's aggressive, but an aggressive player can flop 2 pair (A-6 or A-2?) or hit something on the turn just like anyone else. It's cheaper to bet the flop to see where you are and maybe push out #3 player... and perhaps even take it down right there without having to depend on a mediocre kicker.

I'm partially agree with you. The bet on the flop is a must. But the reason is not to see where I am. The reason is to get value from weaker hands. If he's aggrressive he can c-raise me with trash and I can't fold. The cases where he will flop 2 pair or better or hit on the turn a better hand than mine are very rare. So if he c-raises me on the flop or on the turn that doesn't mean that I'm behind and I'm not going to fold. If he was passive and never check-raises without TPTK or better, then yes, I can know that I'm behind if he c-raises me. But not against aggressive players.
 
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CrossCrucificio

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There's the difference in play, Limit vs No-Limit. If you have top pair, and this is a fixed limit game, just keep betting til your heart contents or a scary board appears. If he is REALLy aggressive, he'll re-raise every bet you make. If this happens, then you can back off and let him do the betting. In limit, don't backdown on your bets, unless someone puts out a caution flag, or the board cautions you.
 
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Ranger390

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str8: I agree with you, for the most part. I would bet the flop. If the Turn card was not scary and the other two players checked, you could also bet the Turn. Since the Turn bet is doubled, lots of folks will fold when they miss and you can take the pot down right there. I doubt most people would play a medium pair all the way to the River. They may see a cheap Turn card, but once they miss, they will usually fold to your doubled Turn bet. But, if my Turn bet was called by even one player, I would hope that anyone who had me beaten will also check the River, hoping to check-raise me. Then, I would also check the River and see a free showdown. If they go all the way to the River with you, they've got something...likely an Ace with a kicker they don't have a lot of confidence in after seeing you bet all the way along. But, that kicker could be a J or even a Q. I might miss a value bet on the River in this case, but I'd rather do that than be check-raised by a potential a set or two pair, but most likely someone with a J kicker.
 
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1pwn00b5

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I like to play opposite what the other players are doing. If you're against an aggressive player, top pair on the flop pair is usually good. Just play nice and slow and trap him and take his chips. :)
 
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darc11

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To me limit is basically alot of over betting. It`s standard to raise preflop and then post flop even if you have nothing. If I flop top pair against an aggrressive player Im betting right out in hopes of him raising. So much of limit is BETTING all the time.
 
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