Fit/Fold mentality vs good situational play

First post here, so I would love some feedback if I'm doing this wrong

My question is about a specific type of game that seems to be common at low limits, especially live 1-2, which is very limp-call heavy. Lots of pots with 4-5 players, and c-bets are rarely effective. Players will call you to the river with second pair or a gut shot on a four-flush board. This kind of game has been analyzed all over, and good players seem to agree that the best strategy is to raise hard with premium hands, see cheap flops with speculative hands (small pp, suited connectors, etc) and avoid likely 2nd best trap hands (KTo, A7o) like the plague unless the situation is absolutely ideal.

My question concerns the speculative hands. Prevailing wisdom seems to take opponents to valuetown when you hit the flop hard, and toss them when they miss. But the same posters rip on the "fit or fold mentality." The strategy makes sense to me, but how is this strategy different than fit or fold? What am I missing here?

cj2327 said:

First post here, so I would love some feedback if I'm doing this wrong

My question is about a specific type of game that seems to be common at low limits, especially live 1-2, which is very limp-call heavy. Lots of pots with 4-5 players, and c-bets are rarely effective. Players will call you to the river with second pair or a gut shot on a four-flush board. This kind of game has been analyzed all over, and good players seem to agree that the best strategy is to raise hard with premium hands, see cheap flops with speculative hands (small pp, suited connectors, etc) and avoid likely 2nd best trap hands (KTo, A7o) like the plague unless the situation is absolutely ideal.

My question concerns the speculative hands. Prevailing wisdom seems to take opponents to valuetown when you hit the flop hard, and toss them when they miss. But the same posters rip on the "fit or fold mentality." The strategy makes sense to me, but how is this strategy different than fit or fold? What am I missing here?

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Spot on about live 1/2 in terms of limpers. It's not uncommon to get half the table (or more) limping in with your raise. Which makes hands like AA vulnerable when flops come.

But, and I'm sure others will come here to say similar, it depends on the opponents. One thing I've come to love about live poker over online poker is the ability to really develop an image of a particular player throughout the session. My biggest hands I've won have often come from aggressive players who want to push the table around. Wait for a premium hand, check raise them all day, and win. I play pretty tight live and people tell me this while they play with me and STILL call me down! If a fishy player is raising you, your hand is probably no good. If an aggressive player is betting and you've got a decent hand you likely have them beat. But it's nuanced and a well timed trap can and will backfire sometimes.

Fit and Fold is absolutely fine in live 1/2 I think. Especially for newer players. I still get knocked off TPTK by aggro players sometimes repping a flush or straight and I'm fine with it. It's a subtle art to be able to read not only a particular opponent but also the board itself. Once I've figured someone out, I just set a trap and let them walk right into it. Sometimes they get lucky and suckout, but often times they stack off right into my set or straight lol.

You may have head of fancy play syndrome. It's an affliction that is ALL over live 1/2 and also micros online. It's fine to run C-bets against even semi-thinking players but not against people who rarely fold. Or against people who are firing raises back at your C-bet. But two key things about C-betting are: position and number of players. If you're last to act and raised pre flop or previous street and there's only 1-2 others in the hand and they check to you, a well timed C-Bet for around half the pot can get you a small pot unless it's a draw heavy board than slightly bigger should do the job. But if half the table is in the hand with you or if you're in early position with not much of a hand, the C_bet can quickly get out of hand and waste your chips.

Basically don't try to rep a big hand on a flushed or straight board or paired board against people who can't fold. And no shame in fit or fold poker at 1/2 live. If you can't get a read on an opponent don't try to get fancy and outplay them because then you'll be sitting there felted wondering how you lost to 24o. .

Quality post @quick

imo, fit and fold covers big part of poker

Thanks @quick. Good analysis