Fish schooling (as in similar to shoaling)

LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
I have noticed an interesting trend that has been going on for a while but now I am pretty certain it is actually real.

I am talking about 5NL but I imagine same thing might be happening in other micro levels.

Lately I have been picking tables more carefully, when possible I like having 1-2 big losers on the table since that should be profitable for the rest of the players.

BUT

If the table is heavily populated by fish the following happens:
1. Blind stealing does not work :mad:
2. Cbets do not work :mad:
3. Isolating anyone does not work :rolleyes:
4. Value betting does not work unless I am having a really good run of cards. The reason is that by the turn 2-3 fishes have seen 4 cards and all sorts of weird crap happens (straights, 2 pairs and sometimes sets) and it is not easy to survive until showdown unless I also have 2 pairs+ kind of hand (which doesn't happen that much).
5. Exotic coolers are pretty frequent :mad:
6. I win a few big pots with best hands (even stacks) but I am constantly bleeding money when on the turn I have overcards or some weak one pair hand (lets say I raised Axs or QJs from BTN) and have to give up.

Basically there is a very strong trend that I am heavily losing in sessions where I see a massive drop in steal success and cbet success (both decent money makers) because I am playing these tables. I am winning in all other types of situations.

It is actually much more profitable for me to play vs. other TAGs and nits with occasional fish thrown in than vs. massed (schooled (TM) :D) fish.
I can steal blinds from the tighter players and isolate fish in right situations.

This goes against common logic, but that is how it is :confused:

Just to give you a clue about this effect in practice:

My overall average stats:
VPIP/PFR = 16.5/14
steal % = 44% (yes this is a bit high but against good targets it works enough)
steal success = 60%
cbet success = 41%

Against fish schools (approximate stats):
VPIP/PFR = 15/13
steal % = 24-34% (I have to reduce ranges a lot)
steal success = 28-38% (yup) :rolleyes:
cbet success = 22-33% (yup) :rolleyes:

So, am I doing something wrong here strategically with standard play or is this actually how it is and these tables are best avoided?

I want to say that I am doing better lately and if I could only solve this issue I would be a comfortable winner. It is paradoxical that massed fish are proving unbeatable for me while I can handle better players :D
 
Last edited:
B

banshee1975

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Total posts
131
Chips
0
I tighten up against fishy tables and mainly set mine and bet premium hands big preflop. Its definately a whole different game
 
B

banshee1975

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Total posts
131
Chips
0
Meant to mention i tighten up my blind buying a bunch also. At these tables it seems rare to not have a bet ahead of me when in position
 
honeycrush

honeycrush

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Total posts
1,488
Awards
2
Chips
26
It's funny because I have come to exactly the same conclusion lately.

In my case it also corresponds to the time of day/day of the week that I play. People always advise that we play on evenings and weekends to take advantage of the fish. Paradoxically, my biggest losing sessions are in the late evening and at weekends when all the drunk fish come out. Yes, I sometimes win big pots but a lot of the time I lose to fish cracking my AA aipf with rags or chasing draws with terrible odds and hitting their 2 or 3 outers on the river. I do much better when playing in the mornings on a weekday against bad regs and the occasional fish.

Makes no sense to me and I realise it's a huge leak in my game that I can't beat a bunch of droolers. :D Things work out well when I'm running good but when I'm running bad I lose all my previous winnings and am back to square one So no answers for you here I'm afraid but I feel your pain! :(
 
S

ScottishMatt

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Total posts
2,394
Chips
0
Post some hand histories where you still have 4 fish in by the turn. Then I'll tell you what you did wrong.

For right now I'll give you some general advice -

1) Don't steal so wide
2) Stop C-betting them with air
3) Only isolate broadways
4) Value bet properly
5) Tough luck
6) Don't ****ing C-bet then

Give us 5 or 6 good hands like the ones you are describing.
 
Last edited:
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
Not you again LD with all this horseshit about value betting not working at the micros lmao ffs!!!
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
I can't do the hand histories due to the whole FT hand export issue, besides it would only show loads of medium loss hands which go:
1) PFR with a pocket pair or AQ+ or in CO/BTN ATs+/KQ or in BTN with all that and suited Broadways and Ax/Ksx if I am trying to steal
2) Flop missed or a one pair hand hit but not TPTK
3) Cbet fail
4) Turn check behind or c/f (if OOP) or fold if fired into. The reason is that most of these guys have extremely low turn fold to cbet stats (single digits or even 0%),
5) River c/c or c/f, most of the time one pair is no good since someone has hit something better.

Cafeman - I would really really LOVE to see how you would play these tables. If you have account on FT we might arrange it? I will tell you which tables are the problem ones and then I can watch you own them mercilessly.

If not, then I can try making a movie of my play and then everybody can comment.
This is a bit uncomfortable for me since I would be posting other people on the Internet while presenting them as bad players (in my opinion) and that might be a bit rude.
 
Last edited:
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
Scottish, if I don't cbet ever unless I hit heavily it is unprofitable to even raise preflop, isn't it? I can nit it up of course if that is the only possible solution but preflop losses are pretty big that way and premium hands get coolered enough times to make the few big wins around break even in total. I tried that approach at first too.

"Value bet properly" means "bet only TPTK+"?
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
banshee - Thanks for the comments, your strategy seems sound but I couldn't get it to work when I tried. I might give it another go though, something has to work here.

honeycrush - Exactly :D if I can't defeat these tables, I have no business going further up in stakes.
 
AugustWest

AugustWest

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Total posts
608
Awards
1
Chips
1
If you want to play TAG's or nits, try Carbon 4NL.

Players on sites that are difficult to deposit/withdraw from
means the majority of people there are "enthusiasts".

Do you multitable? I get in trouble with "boredom" tilt sometimes
and start playing junk OOP. Maybe playing more than one table can help even things out...
 
S

ScottishMatt

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Total posts
2,394
Chips
0
Make a video. Then we will be able to tell you what is going wrong. Honestly I'm a horrible player and yet I can find some success at these stakes, and from what I understand FT has weaker competition than stars.

Value bet properly = betting when your opponents range is weighted towards worse. If I have MPTK on a wet board BTN vs BB against a fish I'm auto firing two barrels for value. So no. It doesn't automatically mean TP or better, every scenario is different.

Seriously just post a video. Or get a sweat if possible.
 
kingphil02

kingphil02

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Total posts
34
Chips
0
Dame thanks alot I was in a mental jam ready to retire from online poker. Granted Im learning still I thought it was the site but your right if fish and good players alike wont fold and are willing to play more hands its much harder to put value on our hands or bluff its a different game for sure. More cautuon is needed! Im goneing to switch my play big time I will have to play as Im playing pros at times and pick my spots to make a move more carefully. THANKS ALOT FOR OPENING MY EYES. I WENT CRAZE LOSEING A SHIT LOAD OF MONEY. GOOD FEEDBACK FROM OTHERS AS WELL. THANKS
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
If you want to play TAG's or nits, try Carbon 4NL.

Players on sites that are difficult to deposit/withdraw from
means the majority of people there are "enthusiasts".

Do you multitable? I get in trouble with "boredom" tilt sometimes
and start playing junk OOP. Maybe playing more than one table can help even things out...

There are TAGs/nits in FTP too. Problem is that the tables I am speaking of are the only ones that are giving me trouble and yet common attitude is that these tables are in fact ideal to play on.

SM - Problem is that I find it hard to define ranges of 40/10 players (ATCs basically), especially those who fold to cbet 35-50% on flop and 0-10% on the turn. Two of these at the same time in a hand and it is a freaking nightmare as far as ranges go. There are quite a few who have fold to cbet 60/0 (flop/turn) and if they don't fold I am obliged to give up if not having a real hand... if I try pot control they often start attacking with overbets and such (which is great if I can trap them but usually I gotta fold).
 
Last edited:
bricht

bricht

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Total posts
88
Chips
0
You have to adjust!
If c-bets don't work because villains simply dont fold to c-bets, then don't bluff c-bet, only value c-bet.
Check the HUD. If villains "fold to flop c-bet" is 10% but "fold to turn c-bet" is 80%, then double barrel him.
If pots always go multi-way because nobody is folding, play hands like suited connectors and suited broadways and avoid playing stuff like weak Ax even from late position - play hands that work multiway well and, yes, overcalling and sometimes limping with hands like 78s is ok if the table is passive. Raise biiiig with premium hands.
The whole value from playing micro-stakes comes from adjusting to your opponents. Most of the time you will loose many small pots that you just have to give up to never-folding-fish and win a seldom, but huuge pot when you hit hard. As I understand (not from experience), adjusting to every detail in higher stakes is the only way to win.
Peace.
 
S

ScottishMatt

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Total posts
2,394
Chips
0
Why do you feel obliged to give up? You should never commit any chips postflop unless you can valuetown their ass. You may be getting attached to your hand too much. Understand that AKo on JsTs2d isn't worth a ****ing cent vs these droolers. I X/F plenty, but I get enough value to make up for it.
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

Bar Master
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Total posts
7,139
Awards
3
Chips
21
no....just no to this whole thread
 
benevg

benevg

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Total posts
1,267
Chips
0
If not, then I can try making a movie of my play and then everybody can comment.
This is a bit uncomfortable for me since I would be posting other people on the Internet while presenting them as bad players (in my opinion) and that might be a bit rude.
do that. :) it will be most helpful.
 
Last edited:
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
I do have fold to cbet flop/turn on the HUD and I use it well enough except vs these persistent guys. I can stack them with a set+ almost every time (except when coolered) but I also get a lot of medium sized losses via turn/river folds and preflop losses (can't steal enough to compensate for the blinds in pure preflop play). Overall I find it hard to get ahead unless cards are on my side and that evens up over time.

Basically the optimal way would be to just avoid these tables and play "average" tables and win, but I feel this is crucial topic for me if I want to improve.

SM - I have to give up the hand since I found that being aggro with just a pair is pretty bad usually vs multiple fish. They are not complete idiots, meaning they can estimate my range well enough and potential sets don't scare them (I get the feeling they just assume I have a pair every time).
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

Bar Master
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Total posts
7,139
Awards
3
Chips
21
SM - I have to give up the hand since I found that being aggro with just a pair is pretty bad usually vs multiple fish. They are not complete idiots, meaning they can estimate my range well enough and potential sets don't scare them (I get the feeling they just assume I have a pair every time).

You are giving wayy to much credit to fish at 5nl....
 
X

xlmnx

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
73
Chips
0
Change it up

This* I tighten up against fishy tables and mainly set mine and bet premium hands big preflop. Its definately a whole different game. ** Low pockets are instantly folded unless cheap and the table is predictable. Besides that even going to get a pepsi can ruin your rythme it seems for bad investments.
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Total posts
4,681
Chips
0
Make a video. Then we will be able to tell you what is going wrong. Honestly I'm a horrible player and yet I can find some success at these stakes, and from what I understand FT has weaker competition than stars.

Value bet properly = betting when your opponents range is weighted towards worse. If I have MPTK on a wet board BTN vs BB against a fish I'm auto firing two barrels for value. So no. It doesn't automatically mean TP or better, every scenario is different.

Seriously just post a video. Or get a sweat if possible.
I came here to say what Matt has already said.
So i guess a plus 1 is in order
+1
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
there is alot of fuss going on lately about 5 NL. I made a thread not too long ago asking if 5NL is harder than 10NL.

Ipersonally believe it is no matter what anyone says due to the fact that that is what my own experience tells me. Maybe for others 5NL is easier. for me its not.

Imade more money in 10NL than i ever could dream of at 5NL where i was breakeven at best.

These little calling station,fishy,bad calling donks at 5 NL are unbeatable. Noone can beat this limit.

Id be interested in seeing a screenshot of a 5NL winner over a large amount of hands played. like more than 15bb/100,if its that easy.
 
Top