My first time playing $5/$10

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Weisssound

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I've been playing lower stakes for a while. Mostly .50/1 and 1/2. At these stakes I've found the game is more about looking for fishy players than actually playing poker. Not that it's really a problem. But in reality, the game play is pretty predictable. You don't really do anything tricky or interesting because, well, most of the players I'm against aren't going to understand enough of what's going on to react to it. They're kind of just looking at their cards, looking at the board, and going with it.

Basically, today, I started getting board. Waiting around waiting around. So I figured, ok, if I'm going to wait around a lot, I might as well make the hands I'm playing very exciting.

So I bumped to 5/10 :eek:

Boredom is DANGEROUS.

To make things worse, I bought in with $400, which on a 5/10 table might as well be a sign that says "I'm A FISH". But I understood that, so I figured maybe I can make that advantageous. We'll see.

In the entire hour that I played, I maybe played 7 hands. The first hand I went in, I lost about $50. Mind you, I had some equity, I read the situation, I played a somewhat loose hand out of position, it was an acceptable loss for what I was doing.

I played another hand and won it on a continuation bet. Don't remember the specifics, I think an ace hit the flop, went check-check, lead the turn to a fold. Pretty mild. I was NOT the pre-flop raiser. And I think that made my line a touch more believable.

Anyway, the tightness and aggressiveness of the table had me folding quite a bit.

An interesting hand came along that really set things in motion for me. UTG+1 raised to $20. That looked a little meek to me and I'm looking down at Q10 off on the button. I figure, ya know, this hand is probably a touch behind, but likely has decent equity - if I raise up to say $50, I'll have position, I'll have some holding, and I'll know at least a fair degree of my opponents strength going into the flop. So I 3-bet it and got folds all around (yay!). Probably folded out A10/AJ/KQ.

The next hand came and it was AJsuited on the cutoff. Folds to me, I raise to $30. Everyone folds. Hey, I'll take it.

Next hand comes and it's some garbage that I toss.

Now I'm under the gun (6-handed) and I wake up with KK. I think my light 3-bet, followed by my raise, plus my stack size all worked together to make this happen. I raise to $30. Folds to the button who calls. SB folds. BB raised to $130. I tank for a moment, just to consider how likely I'm against AA and I realize based on my perceived image I could be against TT, JJ, QQ, AK, or AA. So I'm CRUSHING most of this range. I figure the sharp thing to do would be flat. But the FISH thing to do would be shove AK/JJ/TT/QQ/AQ/AJ. I think the opponent thinks I raised light and the button respectively called light. So I shove. And he calls me, with JJ. +$400. I think the guy realized he made a silly mistake, but given the way the hands were coming out he probably felt fairly secure of his call at the time.

I won a couple more small pots, and then ran into another interesting hand. This one I made a mistake.

I have TT in the BB. UTG raises to $30. I have to give her some credit, and figure it's most likely your basic premie. I considered 3-betting, but felt I could probably flat safely. Either choice would have been fine in my estimation.

Flop comes 10spade, Qdiamond, 5diamond. Which in my estimation is a really good flop for me. I have a play for this kind of spot that actually works well against a good opponent out of position (hard to have plays that work in those situations). Given the board, it's almost a guarantee she'll continue betting so I check, and she raises $30. I want her to think I'm on a draw, so I tank for a moment and call. I can't really tell if she hit the queen or not, but it doesn't really matter. The turn card comes the Ace of clubs. This is a GREAT card for me, cause I know she hit something here. I min-raise $25. My hope is that she'll see this as a blocker bet for my "diamond draw" and raise it about pot size. Which she does!

Here's where I made my mistake. Suddenly I realize that she may be bluffing a draw here. Which then makes me worry about the river. I shouldn't have been so worried about the river. Realistically, I could have flat here and if the diamond doesn't hit I could shove and make it look like a bluff. Meanwhile I'm thinking that if she does have AQ I can could probably go all in now. So I chose to shove the turn, protecting against a draw that she most likely didn't have or maximizing value against AQ. It made sense at the time. But when she quick folded I realized I had probably missed out on some good value. Still, I walked off something like +$85 for the hand, so I wasn't too sore about it.


Anyway, I left the table +$600, and feeling fairly confident about my game. Back to the lower stakes for a while, my bankroll isn't really where it needs to be to suffer the variance of stakes that high. But nonetheless, it was positive experience.
 
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Ubercroz

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You have no reason to feel confident in your game.

You lost your discipline, put too much of your bankroll on the line, played scared, bought in as a short stack, and then got lucky.

Learn to manage your bankroll better, keep better track of impulses, and try and get better at the game.

I don't think you have anything to celebrate here, its not that different than buying a $400 lottery ticket that took a few hours to scratch it off to see if you won.
 
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nykaktak

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yes, here you will tell nothing)) the good fellow) xD xD xD
 
rytciaq

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Congratulations on your profit, but remember, you, for example, could have lost that flip against jacks with kings and your confidence would be blown-away immediately. Although, I wish you good luck.
 
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Weisssound

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Ain't that the truth! I've lost those races before, but I wouldn't shame myself for getting it in as an 80% favorite. Even if the guy flipped AA I still wouldn't be too mad at myself. The bigger issue is that there was a 20% chance that 1/3 of my bankroll would have poofed and that's why I'm going to stick to lower stakes for the most part.

But in this case, I was a lucky fish :)
 
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Weisssound

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Ain't that the truth! I've lost those races before, but I wouldn't shame myself for getting it in as an 80% favorite. Even if the guy flipped AA I still wouldn't be too mad at myself. The bigger issue is that there was a 20% chance that 1/3 of my bankroll would have poofed and that's why I'm going to stick to lower stakes for the most part.

But in this case, I was a lucky fish :)
 
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Weisssound

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whoops, not this time. Went back to it... it's just more interesting.

I'm KK in the BB, UTG raises 2.5xBB ($25), SB calls, I raise to $75. UTG tank calls, SB tanks half a second then calls.

Flop comes Qdiamond, 10diamond, 3 clubs. Looks a little draw heavy so I lead out for $225. Mind you I just bought in with $500. UTG folds, SB puts me all in. Honestly I felt like AA probably would have come over the top and a set would flat call because clearly if another diamond didn't pop I'd be betting the turn. So I'm thinking my opponent paired the Queen and is just going for it. So I call.

Yup KK vs. AQ with the Queen paired. Ace is a diamond. I guess he figured his aces are live, he's back door to a flush and straight, and figured about half of my 3-bet range was behind with a pair of queens. So I can't say my opponent misplayed their hand. Well, the Ace hit on the turn and that $600 I made yesterday poofed.

I'm not mad at my play, or my bet, or my call. I think villain's odds were something like 24%, so I'll put $500 on those odds any day.


I've been tailoring my aggression though playing different stakes. I find that if you want to blow someone off a hand on a lower stakes table you have to be viciously over aggressive. On the higher stakes you have to convince someone you have a hand that you are trying to get value out of. There's a lot more 3 dimensional thinking.
 
nsinalis11

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Good job my first time i get in 5/10 i had strait and i get all in and i get 1000$ in 3 minutes, the other day i lost it all with my bankroll ,its a different level of players be carefull in the first steps.
 
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Ubercroz

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I've been tailoring my aggression though playing different stakes. I find that if you want to blow someone off a hand on a lower stakes table you have to be viciously over aggressive. On the higher stakes you have to convince someone you have a hand that you are trying to get value out of. There's a lot more 3 dimensional thinking.


This is pretty low level thinking and demonstrates you have the wrong mindset. You are going to keep losing, and when you put a 1/3 to 1/4 of your bankroll on the table you are going to get crushed fast.

The reason you are losing at the lower stakes is because you are trying to blow people off of a hand. The reason you will lose at high stakes is because people are going to be able to hand read better and will punish you for being over aggressive, too passive, or you will be playing too obviously.

If you think that games with better players are easier to beat, then you are the fish at the table.

Do what you want to do with your money, I have no sympathy for you.

I hope you are the next phil ivey and just crush 5/10. I don't think that is going to happen.
 
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Weisssound

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I appreciate the idea, and I completely agree.

Mind you: a) I never said I'm trying to blow people off of hands. My main goal is to get it in with value, and I see bluffing as a means to an end of that course. I think being able to bluff someone off is an important part of being a winning player, but not nearly as important as getting it in with value.

b) I never said I expected higher stakes to be easier. I don't. I expect it to be more interesting.

c) I never said I was doing badly at lower stakes. My win rate is fairly solid, about $20/hr.

To reiterate, my exacting thoughts were that there's more strategy - factoring my own perceived range against my opponents range and the expectations of both, all while factoring in the actual odds. I find when I do that on lower stakes, it back fires.

BUT... yeah, trying to win by blowing people off hands is no good. I hope I'm the next Ivey and crush 5/10 too!
 
LeanAndMean

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This was a fun read. You got the guts for sure. I'd have been too nervous to breathe. Phil Ivey better watch out
 
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Don't quite undertand the hostile undertone in some of the replies. Weisssound seems to be a thinking player and felt like taking a big shot. So what? He made two very valuable/interesting experiences. I enjoyed the read. :) GL Weisssound!
 
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Weisssound

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I don't think anyone was trying to be hostile. I think the ubercroz hooked onto one thing I said out of context - which happened to be about bluffing people off of a hand. One thing that is supremely true of fishy players is that they bluff way too much. His advice is very good advice. AND playing a third of my bankroll was NOT a good idea per se.

As for tailoring aggression, my point was the bigger picture which comes to the nature of betting and how it's different on lower stakes vs. higher stakes.

For example, I don't remember what I had, but it was something good and I raised up and the blind defended. Flop was low, I think a jack on there. The guy donk bet me. I think I had AQ. So he donk bets about pot size. And I'm about to fold when I realize this just doesn't feel that threatening. What's he donk betting with? A jack maybe. At best. So I call it off. A King comes on the turn, he tanks and checks. So I bet almost the whole pot. Now at higher stakes, I think a jack would have stuck around - the bet was a bit too high to really be value. But if I value size bet here at lower stakes, the guy would have stayed in.

That's an example of tailoring aggression.
 
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Don't quite undertand the hostile undertone in some of the replies. Weisssound seems to be a thinking player and felt like taking a big shot. So what? He made two very valuable/interesting experiences. I enjoyed the read. :) GL Weisssound!

I think my hostility actually has overtones to it. :)

I'm not disagreeing that he may be a thinking player, but simply being thoughtful isn't enough.

People can do whatever they want to with their money. You can put $500 on to a site and play half stacked at a 1000nl game if you want to.

That being said, I can also tell you that you are making poor decisions by doing so. Those are both things people can do.

While they were interesting experiences, I am mostly trying to give a stern warning to someone who is headed for big losses. If you can't beat the low stakes games you won't be the higher stakes games. By taking a big shot you are basically throwing money away, and are not really getting a lesson that's worth the money.
 
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Ubercroz

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I don't think anyone was trying to be hostile. I think the ubercroz hooked onto one thing I said out of context - which happened to be about bluffing people off of a hand. One thing that is supremely true of fishy players is that they bluff way too much. His advice is very good advice. AND playing a third of my bankroll was NOT a good idea per se.

As for tailoring aggression, my point was the bigger picture which comes to the nature of betting and how it's different on lower stakes vs. higher stakes.

For example, I don't remember what I had, but it was something good and I raised up and the blind defended. Flop was low, I think a jack on there. The guy donk bet me. I think I had AQ. So he donk bets about pot size. And I'm about to fold when I realize this just doesn't feel that threatening. What's he donk betting with? A jack maybe. At best. So I call it off. A King comes on the turn, he tanks and checks. So I bet almost the whole pot. Now at higher stakes, I think a jack would have stuck around - the bet was a bit too high to really be value. But if I value size bet here at lower stakes, the guy would have stayed in.

That's an example of tailoring aggression.

I actually don't understand your example.

At high stakes someone would call because it looks like a bluff, at low stakes someone would call because the just call?

The nature of betting at the higher stakes is different, but I think this is an overly simplistic view of why it is different.

At its most basic level a bet is made when we have a hand that has value, and you want someone to pay you. You are wagering that the hand you have is better than the hand someone else has.

All betting, in a sense, is done in support of this concept.

At the higher levels you will bluff, but the bluff - in a sense - is not purely to take down the pot now. It is also done to broaden your range so that you will sometimes get called when you have your hand. You are bluffing to support your value bets.

This is part of balancing your ranges. The thing is, that a weaker player (even a thinking player) is going to make mistakes in their reactions and adjustments in the game. If you cannot adjust to what your opponent is doing (most 1000nl players can, and quickly) then you will be abused and you will lose.

The reason that lower stakes games are easier is because your opponents don't adjust. What that means is that you only have to play value based to beat your opponents. They don't change that much and they don't do it fast. If you cannot beat opponents who you don't need to make adjustments to beat, you will not be able to beat an opponent who does.

The baseline you need to develop is the ability to play for value, and to do it aggressively. If you can't do that, then you don't have the solid default game to lean on initially before you have to adjust. Its the center game that you initially develop so that you can deviate from it.

Yes, you need to tailor your aggression, but if you don't have a solid game from which to tailor it, then you will lose.

It's like going to an actual tailor to get a suit adjusted, but you don't have a suit. If you have nothing to adjust you will just be naked.
 
JPoling

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The only problem i have with this is you stuck your money in the 5/10nl one time when you shouldnt of cause you didnt have the bankroll. Then you made money. Should of went back to your limit for your bankroll after getting lucky instead of going back. Some people do that and get so on tilt and poof. There goes the whole bankroll.
 
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Absolutely. Reality speaking even playing well my bankroll can't really survive the variance of 5/10 (my second example with KK being a prime example), and going in half stack I understand will make me a target which brings in other complications.


Anyway, regarding tailoring aggression it's just figuring what bets are likely to represent at different stakes. I don't know how I would interpret a donk lead like the one I cited on higher stakes, and would have trouble reacting to it. But on lower stakes I realize that it was most likely a protection bet for something like J8, and that this guy was probably scared of overcards or big pocket pairs. It's fine tuning those situations to make generally more informed folds, or in this particular case, assessing that I could get away with a bluff. And the guy did call me all in when I flopped a straight and he flopped what turned out to be two pair.

I guess my other point was that I don't feel that I've been doing poorly on lower stakes. But if there's something in my play that I've mentioned that could be patched up I'm definitely all ears.

Any case I certainly appreciate the contribution to the thread!
 
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It's funny the way we look at things now. It used to be that you couldn't find a game (live) that fit your bankroll. A 5/10 was the small NL game. How times have changed.
 
Aces2w1n

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You have no reason to feel confident in your game.

You lost your discipline, put too much of your bankroll on the line, played scared, bought in as a short stack, and then got lucky.

Learn to manage your bankroll better, keep better track of impulses, and try and get better at the game.

I don't think you have anything to celebrate here, its not that different than buying a $400 lottery ticket that took a few hours to scratch it off to see if you won.


I have totally done that mistake... I know exactly what your saying Ubercroz... It's a good way to fall into a bad habbit and next week or two we will be reading how it all went wrong with some bad beats...Havnt read the thread which I am now so maybe im too late.
 
BenjiHustle

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I did this when I rolled up 25 bucks into a fat roll. Then I lost 3k in a sitting. It was a different kind of beast at 5/10. I was up 800 one minute, the next I was re-buying. Can't remember much, because everything happened so fast. I had the fear.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Weissound what site do you play at? From the way you talk about your hands, it doesn't really seem like you should be playing 1knl online. Even if it's somewhere as soft as Bovada.

I agree a lot with what Ubercroz has been saying ITT, and I don't mean to sound harsh but it really seems like you are trying to think at a "high level," without having solid fundamentals. The moment when you questioned whether to gii pre with KK for 40bb was a good example. Maybe you just played that up for the sake of the "story," but I would caution against getting "comfortable" at 5/10. Sometimes taking a small shot can be okay, but not if it desensitizes you to the money/thrill so much at lower levels that you can't play well.

I don't know what your BR is, what your skill level and experience is, or what your goals in poker are (just have fun, become a better player, make money, some combination). But to reiterate, playing with a high % of your BR on the table is virtually always a mistake. You could be the best player in the world and it would be a mistake.

It can be fun to play higher limits when you're running decently and can just play tight. But odds are that you're under-rolled, and under-skilled for that game. Again, just my opinion, and I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but this strikes me as a dangerous line to walk.
 
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my first thing on sittig at a cash table is not playing a hand in first 15 mins to get a feel for the table n how players are playing. Then I start grinding. GL from now on out
 
skiptomyloot

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becareful if your not ready, itll come quick and you wouldn't know what happened to your roll.

i was watching 5/10 on bovada last night . 2/4 games have changed from the last time i gave it a shot. it must have been a quick rush.
 
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