First real downswing - micros

I've been a micro stakes grinder for quite some time playing the occasional $1.65 sng or $2> mtt tournament.

Just downloaded the trial for PT4 and noted when i downloaded my hand history and imported hands from my older HM2 that over the course of 12k hands i was doing well at and beating micro stakes games.

My biggest issue over the course of time has been going on tilt and wrecklessly tossing out my bankroll playing stakes beyond my means and with scared money. That being said i have done much to combat this and havent tossed off a bankroll in quite some time - but now seems i am in a severe downswing - over the past 2 months i have a few winning sessions but seem to lose more than i win. Last night on ACR i was playing $2nl on 4 tables, 3 tables i had over $4.5 on and the 4th i had just over $2. Well after flopping middle set and getting my money in on the turn a players KK ran me down on the river and brought me down to .72 - which i didnt take long gettin all in on the flop with 2pr - mid and bottom, only to get run down again by a bigger 2 pr. One of the other $4 tables saw my flopped straight call the all in of a player on a turned flush draw and wouldn't you know they hit it...

Not to mention quite a few times last night i made some good reads on opponents raising and 3 betting light - i would have their hands dominated and they would still suck out and win. The ones i can remember were J9 vs KJ - AK vs K10 - J10 vs J7 - KQ vs QJ, those are the most noted ones, and i lost every one of them when the odds say i shouldve won about 3 of them - these are all 70/30 hands. I made the right moves against the right players and just seemed that their inferior hands were being rewarded. Anyhow,

It just seems like no matter how well i do or run, that this terrible player pool is just draining me. Not sure why i have so much troubles at micro stakes when i have good success at $1/$2 live. Any advice? Thoughts?

just a few things that came to me whilsty reading this.
1: Are those 12k hands the only 12k hands you have played online?
2: Has all of your previous volume (12k or more) been micro tournies?

Basically, what is your cash game experience, what is your total experience and what is your bankroll?

The micros are truly wild as you know from my earlier post about BetOnline. I think the "eh it's only a few bucks" mentality of gamblers who just wanna chase cards as well as the fact that online poker sees a lot more hands per hour than live poker.

When I first played live 1/2 I was blown away how "easy" it was probably because while the players there are often generally fish with no idea what they'e doing, they're also playing with what to a lot of people is a lot of money. "Eh only $2 to chase that gutshot draw at $10NL online? Why not!, Oh it's $50 to chase it at 1/2 live? That's a lot of money." I will say that my improvements and tolerance for dealing with the wild swings in microstakes online are going to help me become a better $1/2 player (I was leaving a ton of value on the live tables because I was playing way too fit/fold but now I know I can charge more for their draws while also c-betting in late position my opening raises more when I hit a good but not great hand).

But I digress...it's normal to see swings so much at the micros, hundreds of hands an hour mixed with players just mashing keys on their computer because "it's only a few cents" is going to create some breathtakingly bad beats.

when I start loosing, I just move to freerolls for a while till I feel confident again I go and keep on playing cash games. Good Luck Mate and don't keep on downswinging.

the only advice i can give you is to be mindful of the fact than sometimes the human brain can interpret bad play as bad variance and vice versa. so i suggest to analyse your hands better because i think there is some need to also improve your game

jashiggs said:

just a few things that came to me whilsty reading this.
1: Are those 12k hands the only 12k hands you have played online?
2: Has all of your previous volume (12k or more) been micro tournies?

Basically, what is your cash game experience, what is your total experience and what is your bankroll?

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No ive probably played close to 3x that many hands online ive just never used software to manage / track anything until HM2 and no i have PT4 and i am pretty fond of PT4 i must say.

Anyhow, yes most of (if not 95% or so) of those logged hands are micro stakes hands.

I played for about 30 mins at lunch today, just 2 tables 6 max $2nl - i cashed one table for over $4 and the other for $2.50

Just finished a session a frw minutes ago and i am disappointed and disgusted. I lost 4.5 buy ins and i am just extremely unhappy. I've lost $600 in less than 3 hours playing $1/$2 before and never been close to this frustrated at all. Its just killing me.


I had a bankroll of $40 just because i didnt want to rely on freerolls kicking me off so much as they are very hard to cash in and i can only currently play the $10 on demand ones.

Far as cash game experience i've played everything from .5c / .10c - $2/$5 live. Online ive only played as high as $1/$2 which is still considered low stakes poker but thats as far as i've gone. I've been playing poker now for over 5 years, been taking it pretty seriously for abiut 3 years now. Im constantly studying, brushing up on strategy - hell i even teach a few friends who themselves seem to do ok.

Everyone says unless you cant best the lowest stakes possible - meaning $2nl - that you wont be able to play your best at any level. In a way i completely agree as certain moves, bluffs, bet sizings, etc just arnt going to work in micro stakes as they would in a $2/$5 game or $5/$10 nl.

Anyhow, i am just mind boggled, thats all. I keep putting pressure on my opponents, they keep outflopping my dominated hands and keep drawing out on my made hands. The hand i quit on - i flopped the nut straight with J8 in a limped pot - the flop had 2 spades, i overbet the pot and got 4 callers - turn was a blank but a club so now 2 spades on the board and 2 clubs - i jam for just a little over pot and get 2 callers - river is another blank but is a spade....one opponent shoves thw other goes over the top and i fold. They both rivered the spade flush.

I just am not sure i can handle thw swings with these players at micro stakes....ive lost some money to some fish live before, ppl just gambling with no clue - but it never got to me like this has.

I am going to take the advice, chill out. Play a few freerolls and go over some of my most recent hands and reevaluate things.

Luck trumps everything over the short run. The only thing you can do is quit for a while then when u feel normal again go for it again.

When the doom switch flips on online there is no stopping it.

I agree. Venting helps me i suppose - and the fact that people offered up some advice i took to very well i think i am taking it well. Its just the longest downswing ive experienced so far and its tough.

But i quit smokeless tobacco cold turkey because i woke up one morning and decided not to waste anymore money on a product that was going to eventually kill me - meaning i have the discipline i feel i need, so i think if i can get through that i can get through this swing too. Thanks to everyone again for their responses and suggestions

Ride it out ,you can't do anything else.Variance takes care of it's self in the long run just keep making good decisions that's all your in control of.

Update:

Apparently the run of bad luck is not over and unfortunately tilt has wrecked me a little bit. My original $40 bankroll was gone earlier this week, i only had around $9 left.
So i added $50 last night, ran decent but still booked a small loss. Then today, just bombed and again my bankroll is now very short at about $12...

Idk what to do, i went to a home game last night - 8 handed cash .50/$1 nlhe -and sat down with $80 cashed out for $203 after about 6 hrs....

I am thinking of skipping micro stakes altogether - the reason i havnt yet is ive just heard so many people say "if you cant beat $2nl, you wont be able to beat other stakes as well"

Im value betting hands when im hitting - 2pr or better, some spots i take top pr top kicker to value town, im raising my monster draws - open ended straight flush draws - when u do hit my flush, its never any good....they draw with no pair, for any ammount of money, just to try and catch a flush with me betting 3/4 or full pot. When i make two pair...they hit a gutshot, or turn a set or make trips.

I catch em 3 betting light, get it in with A8s against 34off - and flops come 34x or 33x...its just so unreal. Im not sure what else i can really do at these stakes. Just seems the player pool is not just fishy but ultimately way too lucky.

I play 78 hearts from the btn for a 3x raise preflop - flop comes Jd5s8s

Villan bets about 60% pot - i call - turn is the 8d

Villan checks - so bet about 80% pot - villan calls

River is a 2d - villan leads out for near 3/4 pot...i call, he shows q10 diamonds...nothing but backdoor draws from the turn and he hits it...its just been my luck for weeks on end. Am i playing wrong?

Mentally this is really getting to me. Just havnt experienced a downswing this long or this bad. Just cant seem to win a hand.

When I hit the wall like that, I generally take a break and go play some golf and chase some girls

thackro said:

When I hit the wall like that, I generally take a break and go play some golf and chase some girls

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Good advice but im married so no chasing for me lol and i cant stand golf. Perhaps i just really do need a long break from the game

Jon Poker said:

Update:

I am thinking of skipping micro stakes altogether - the reason i havnt yet is ive just heard so many people say "if you cant beat $2nl, you wont be able to beat other stakes as well"

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25NL should be the lowest level you consider playing. EVER!
Anything less might as well be play money, because it plays the same.

I have suggested this for years and people think i'm crazy....

:joyman:

Jon Poker said:

Good advice but im married so no chasing for me lol and i cant stand golf. Perhaps i just really do need a long break from the game

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When I tilt, I fire up GTA Online and murder noobs for hours - it's great!

Smokewood said:

When I tilt, I fire up GTA Online and murder noobs for hours - it's great!

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Lol one of the best pieces of advice i have heard yet. Good way to vent your frustrations lol. Thanks.

25nl also seems like something i may jump directly into as well, im just not having much success at those micro levels and thats where i have been focusing most of my online attention to

The only thing you can do to stop Lady Luck's vindictive streak is to quit for a while. The more you play and lose the closer you get to a breaking point. Then it will be bad play, not bad luck, that swallows your money.

A week break not only reboots luck but it also refreshes your mind.

not fun but just try to ride it out

Go ahead venting, if it helps.

On the other hand, I try to give you a little perspective:

1. Variance is necessary, it keeps the bad players in the game! Think about that for a minute. If it was obvious to a bad player that he will always lose money to a good player in a straightforward manner, he wont play.

But when he gets lucky once in a while, it sparks hope and he keeps playing. If it wasnt for the suckouts, there would not be any fish to crush.

Learn to love the suckouts as a necessary part of the game.

2. I think you need some serious BRM skills and tilt controll.

I play 2NL with a 50$ BR. When I lose 2 BI, I stop and try to figure out what went wrong. If i got sucked out, I continue, but must of the time I just play awefull..and then I stop for the session.

If you reload 50$ and all you have left is 12$ after just one session, you either play too high or you have a huge problem with tilt.

3. Go through your hand history and try to figure out how much you have sucked out, i.e. you played awefull and won a huge pot.

nice

Spewster said:

Go ahead venting, if it helps.

On the other hand, I try to give you a little perspective:

1. Variance is necessary, it keeps the bad players in the game! Think about that for a minute. If it was obvious to a bad player that he will always lose money to a good player in a straightforward manner, he wont play.

But when he gets lucky once in a while, it sparks hope and he keeps playing. If it wasnt for the suckouts, there would not be any fish to crush.

Learn to love the suckouts as a necessary part of the game.

2. I think you need some serious BRM skills and tilt controll.

I play 2NL with a 50$ BR. When I lose 2 BI, I stop and try to figure out what went wrong. If i got sucked out, I continue, but must of the time I just play awefull..and then I stop for the session.

If you reload 50$ and all you have left is 12$ after just one session, you either play too high or you have a huge problem with tilt.

3. Go through your hand history and try to figure out how much you have sucked out, i.e. you played awefull and won a huge pot.

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I like the way you approach things. Yeah i have an issue with tilt which directly effects my bankroll. If I start losing at smaller stakes, sometimes i will throw 80%+ of my babakroll into a higher stakes game figuring the players wont be as bad. The real fact is, there are bad players at every level in the game and thats what makes it profitable to play. So what usually ends up happening is i jump from $2nl up to about $40 - $50 NL, play good, win a few hands, get sucked out on there too and then go all to pieces. So instead of walking away while $2nl is not going well, i just end up losing the maximum.

Its not fun or a great fact but something i let get to me nonetheless. Tilt is becoming less and less of a thing for me which i am glad of but not completely over yet, and i think i am going to start freerolling MTTs for a while - not because i cant afford to reload, but because some of the worst players in the game are in these events. Ive been doing it alot here lately and its been good for me. I think when the right time comes that things will get back on a better track.

Looks like you're on a good way.
From my experience, it's impossible to just decide not to tilt. You can work on it, but it takes time and structure.

Write down what exactly puts you on tilt (the triggers) and how they affect you. There are several forms of tilt.

I start to fume when someone mocks me after he sucked me out. I want revenge and make bad decisions...so I started to either disable chat or cover it with a post it on my screen.

My second trigger is being card dead for too long. I play garbage hands, call or raise too much. To counter this, I have a range chart printed out and pinned next to my screen. When I'm card dead, I shut down completely, watch a video and play very mechanically according to my range chart.



You have to find your own way to deal with tilt, but you have to work at it, otherwise nothing will happen.

How are you doing now ? Still struggling ?

variance is all that is. You want and hope to continue getting it in ahead and winning more that you lose over the long term. 12k hands is a tiny tiny sample. you need at min 150-200k hands to know if you are beating a stake or not. live 1/2 is imo equal to 10c/25c (25nl) online roughly.

TheNutz4You said:

variance is all that is. You want and hope to continue getting it in ahead and winning more that you lose over the long term. 12k hands is a tiny tiny sample. you need at min 150-200k hands to know if you are beating a stake or not. live 1/2 is imo equal to 10c/25c (25nl) online roughly.

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I have a question Im playing 2 nl 6 Max now. When is the best time to move up to 5 nl? After how many hands do you know your ready to move up in stakes?

kwokk3 said:

How are you doing now ? Still struggling ?

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Things are leveling out, not as bad as they were before for sure but not quite as bad. Things are progressing but overall i think the more you play at micros the more you get used to the ups and downs. As one could imagine they are much more extreme at the lower stakes