Facing 3bs OOP with semi-premiums

JCgrind

JCgrind

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Calling 3bs is by far the biggest leak in my game. I believe I could massively improve my bottom line by making some serious adjustments in this department. I've been trying, but in reality it's really too hard to judge whether it's improving or not if that makes sense.

Okay so I used to call a ton of 3bs, fold to 3b was like ~40%. I know this is terrible. It's a bad habbit I picked up from 1c2c in order to play a ton of pots with fish (as well as the fact that you can set mine a lot more frequently at 2nl as stacks are deep). While I believe it worked great at low levels, I know it doesn't higher up. Definitely a big way to bleed at 25nl.
In order to try and fix this, I simply stopped calling 3bs, and now just 4b or fold religiously, but I'm not happy about it, as 4b ranges have to be so tight at this level that I'm easily exploited as I fold to 3bs a ton- which might I add happen every 2nd hand it seems.

Let's say I get 3b and for arguments sake, it's to an amount I cannot flat to setmine.... What's my line with something like AQo OOP vs 10% 3b range? I seriously have no idea. Say i opened CO and was raised by Bu. I hate folding it, because lets face it villain is showing up with shit like 97s here often, i hate calling it because I'm c/f a ton of the time as I miss the flop lots, and when I Bink the ace I'm winning a small pot or losing a big one, and I hate 4bing it because If he shoves I can't call, he rarely folds (people seem to feel super pot committed) and calls often, where I have to play a large pot OOP and therefore just kinda hope he folds to my flop Cbet, which is generally half the time imo
What else should I look at when considering whether to fold/call/4b in the above scenario apart from 10% 3b, fold to 4b and how often vil folds to Cbets/raises Cbets on the flop and turn in 3b pots (I realise pot will be 4b, but 3b stat will be relatively similar and converge quicker)

Really lost here, appreciate you reading that essay lol cheers :D
 
dooydoo

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A useful stat when you have enough hands is called '3b vs steal'. For example your villain with 10% 3b overall might have a 15% 3b vs steal or a 10% 3b vs steal or a 5% vs steal.

15%= his 3b range increases vs steals
10%= his range remains the same
5%= he tightens up vs steals

so use that stat to deduce his game style and your play back at range.

most good players 3b vs steal range should increase.

oop its still better to 4b or fold unless you have some great reads on the guy like he cbets 99% in 3b pots or cbets 90% and turn cb 30% etc. That might give you justification to call. But more often than not just 4b or fold.

You might feel like youre getting exploited but its most likely not the case. Also remember that youre 3betting a lot too so its evening out. Let them make the mistake of calling your 3b oop while you stay solid and 4b or fold.

If at a table you feel like youre getting 3b every hand then leave unless theres a very good reason to stay. If certain regs 3b you a lot, use HM to filter them out and find their 3b range so you can play back at them a bit better.

Theres nothing wrong with folding to 3b a lot. Dont fold too much though like 70% but 50% if very very fine.
 
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baudib1

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Still tend to fold to 3-bets more than you do. AQo is a standard fold to 3-bets in or out of position at 25 NL, IMO.

But it really depends on their 3-betting tendencies. I'll say it again: If they are 3-betting a polarized range, tend to flat. If they are 3-betting a merged range, tend to 4-bet. The reasons why should be obvious.

And while we should tend to 4-bet OOP and flat IP, if they are 3-betting a merged range we should still tend to flat OOP. This means sometimes flatting AA/KK to 3-bets. Because you'll need a stronger range to flat OOP and those are the strongest hands we can flat, and AA/KK are a lot easier to play OOP than any other hands.
 
JCgrind

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If I raise from a steal spot and get 3b by a blind, I just look at their 3b from that position, it'd be relatively similar to 3b vs steal wouldn't it?

So what, 4b/fold to shove? Seems kinda spewy :s

Also, it's very common at 6max to have guys 3b between 15-20% ITB vs steals so you almost are literally getting 3b half the time lol.

Thanks for the in depth response too, appreciated
 
micromachine

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Theres nothing wrong with folding to 3b a lot. Dont fold too much though like 70% but 50% if very very fine.

You think folding to 70% of cbets is too much?? I'm surprised by that, are you talking about it being too much against 10% 3bettors, or in general?
 
JCgrind

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Still tend to fold to 3-bets more than you do. AQo is a standard fold to 3-bets in or out of position at 25 NL, IMO.

Standard fold to 3b vs a resteal where we can therefore call IP?


And ye I get the polarized/merged thing, real helpful cheers
 
dooydoo

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folding to 70% of 3bets is a lot overall. I think more optimal would be around 60%. When you get higher and most players are well versed in 3betting and exploiting stats then it should be around 50%.

Strictly oop then i agree you should fold much more.

I do agree that the best strategy vs 3bets is the tight strategy where folding is your default.
 
acky100

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Folding 70% to 3bets is definitely not optimal if we wanna look at it through making ourselves unexploitable to other regs. Regs can literally 3bet ATC if we fold 70% to 3bets and show a profit. This is something im working on too, my fold to 3bet when raise first in is 67%, so yeah a part of my game where i can be exploited. Thing is i don't think you need to worry that much about it, i'd like to get mine down to around 55% just so i don't have a target on my head all the time (this doesnt matter until you hit 50nl i'd say, maybe more so at 100 and 200 where regs are looking at stats to exploit you) But still i feel it's something to think about... One thing im sure really gets me 3bet a lot is people who use pokertracker fold to 3bet stat ,this doesnt count only the times you raised first in and folded to a 3bet, so for example, mine is about 82% and obviously regs who use this are just gonna 3bet me constantly. Not a big deal though as they're using the wrong stat and probably gonna exploit themselves.

At the micro's i think folding to 70%+ of 3bets is gonna be totally fine, it's working for me folding almost 70% at higher limits, i just wanna get mine lower to stop being as exploitable although people still arent exploiting me enough for it.

How to check whether you should be defending more or less to 3bets would be to filter for faced a 3bet after raised first in and look how much you lose when you fold... (probably around 300bb/100 depending on your opening size etc) Then look at faced 3bet and called, if this number is lower than the first number then your calling of 3bets strategy is actually making you money even if its -290 bb/100 compared to just folding outright to the 3bets) inb4 "but folding is always 0 EV!!!"
 
micromachine

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I use PT3 Fold to 3bet stat, maybe that's why I found it surprising for 70% to be considered too high.

Acky, would you recommend I change my HUD stat to "fold to 3bet when raise first in"?
 
acky100

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I use PT3 Fold to 3bet stat, maybe that's why I found it surprising for 70% to be considered too high.

Acky, would you recommend I change my HUD stat to "fold to 3bet when raise first in"?

Definitely, it's so inaccurate as it counts the times you fold trash in the small blind etc because someone 3bet in-front of you. You will have to search for it and download it from pt forums, don't think it comes with pt3 as standard anyways.
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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This is 6 max correct? I don't see how you could have problems with 3 bet pots here. That's one of the biggest reasons to play 6 max. 3bet rangers are way wider in 6 max than full ring.

Depending on how often the guy 3bets you adjust your range accordingly.

I'm assuming Baudib is talking full ring when saying one should fold AQ to a 3bet regardless of being IP or OOP. I'll only muck that to an extremely nitty player in 6 max.

Btw, I hope you take advantage of putting people in this awkward position as well and 3bet them just as often in 6 max games.
 
acky100

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This is 6 max correct? I don't see how you could have problems with 3 bet pots here. That's one of the biggest reasons to play 6 max. 3bet rangers are way wider in 6 max than full ring.

Depending on how often the guy 3bets you adjust your range accordingly.

I'm assuming Baudib is talking full ring when saying one should fold AQ to a 3bet regardless of being IP or OOP. I'll only muck that to an extremely nitty player in 6 max.

Btw, I hope you take advantage of putting people in this awkward position as well and 3bet them just as often in 6 max games.

I think jc plays 6max, but its totally irrelevant anyways. If we talk from a theory perspective there are still a ton of guys at FR who will be 3betting just as much as 6max players in certain spots, where you should be calling with AQ,AJ etc. Villain dependant as always. Why would 3betting ranges being wider in 6max be one of the biggest reasons to play it?
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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I think jc plays 6max, but its totally irrelevant anyways. If we talk from a theory perspective there are still a ton of guys at FR who will be 3betting just as much as 6max players in certain spots, where you should be calling with AQ,AJ etc. Villain dependant as always. Why would 3betting ranges being wider in 6max be one of the biggest reasons to play it?

I don't believe it's irrelevant at all. Yes I think it's always villain dependent.. But you'd be silly to tell me that 6 max doesn't have a large increase in 3bet pots. There are way more blind steals, and 3bets from blinds, CO steals and 3bets from button, whatever it may be. Simply because your range changes in 6max. FR a 3bet more often indicates a strong hand. And it would be one of the biggest reasons to play it because if you don't like 3bet pots why would you play 6max? It's all about making plays and playing more hands, 3betting with weaker hands, standing up for your blinds, etc.

I just don't know people who play 6max tables because they like the blinds hitting them more often.
 
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-Phil Ivey27

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And I did say it was villain dependent myself in my above post ^^

"Depending on how often the guy 3bets you adjust your range accordingly."
 
acky100

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Yeh in 6max you do find people 3betting a bit more from co-btn, and will be more players with higher 3bets "standing up for their blinds" But it's not a huge difference when you start playing where people arent retarded. It's pretty irrelevant because the BTN is the BTN. The blinds are the blinds. A btn vs blinds spot in FR is exactly the same as in 6max. There are still plenty of people 3betting 12%+ vs btn steals in FR and people are still stealing from the button with the EXACT same range as the cool kids over at 6max with (40%,50% whatever, same position 3 less seats)

The biggest reason why its irrelevant is because just because you assume FR is full of people who don't 3bet, doesn't mean we can happily fold all the time when we get 3bet. At 6max and FR and HU, if you raise and get 3bet the chances are you are going to have to defend a almost identical percentage of your opening range to avoid being exploited.

Basically what your advice or statement was, was that OP shouldnt have any problems dealing with 3bets because its 6max? I just think people who don't play FR just assume because its not 6max that btn-blinds are a whole world apart, when they're pretty much identical, you play the two guys to your left and that is all... You dont NEED to steal more, you dont NEED to defend more or any of that bullshit people always go on about, a good player in either format will do both optimally.
 
-Phil Ivey27

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I agree with what you're saying and although button blind battles are the same thing regardless, they happen more often in 6max situations. Which means you should be prepared for that type of thing, and become an avid 3better yourself isolating fish.

I just think for that type of format there's a certain playing style that differs from FR. Not entirely different. But for example if I have AJ on the BU in FR and the BB 3bets me i'll be less likely to call, if I have no information on the villain, but in 6max I will probably gladly make that call.

Obviously I agree this is all villain dependent regardless, if you have that type of information on a player.
 
JCgrind

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ye i do play shorthanded, and well dw i 3b the shit out of everyone, my defend range is enormous lmao.

i still think folding 70% is optimal for like 10NL, where people dont even know what blind defense is. but again, vil dependent always

also acky cheers for that about fold to 3b stat, had no idea
 
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baudib1

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Acky, your point is well-taken but I'll still tend to disagree. I think at higher levels, let's say NL100 and above, it is very true. The aggression tends to increase exponentially, and I'm sure people who would be nits at FR NL100 are more aggro than TAGs at NL25 6-max.

However, at NL25 and below I just don't see it as being true. Keep in mind I haven't played these games for more than a year so this is mostly talking out of my arse. But I see all sorts of stats and positional details on you guys and I just don't see solid players around here playing NL25 and opening the BTN 50% or something, which is very common at 6-max.

The last time I was playing 6-max, I got to the point of getting it in pre with 88-TT type hands BTN vs. Blinds and found myself generally in good shape. I think I was significantly on the aggro/loose side in doing that but I don't think you could dream of happily stacking TT-JJ/AQs type hands at any position at NL25 FR. There are all kinds of 3-bet monkeys at 6-max, at least there were on the big sites, who are 3-betting like 20% and higher from the SB.
 
JCgrind

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The last time I was playing 6-max, I got to the point of getting it in pre with 88-TT type hands BTN vs. Blinds and found myself generally in good shape. I think I was significantly on the aggro/loose side in doing that

were your vpip/pfr laggy? most people here will see that you are lagging will stick it in with a PP vs you.

also, do you mean that youd say open x3 BTN, get 3b to like 10BB and 4b shove TT or what?
 
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baudib1

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This is not AIPF but it was Rush poker. I just don't think this type of spew happens at FR.

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($25) 100bb
UTG+1 ($25) 100bb
baudib1 (CO) ($26.67) 107bb
BTN ($10.12) 40bb
SB ($116.43) 466bb
BB ($25) 100bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) baudib1 is CO J:club: J:spade:
2 folds, baudib1 raises to $1, 2 folds, BB raises to $2.50, baudib1 calls $1.50

Flop: 6:club: 9:diamond: 2:spade: ($5.10, 2 players)
BB checks, baudib1 bets $24.17, BB calls $22.50

Turn: 7:club: ($50.10, 2 players)

River: 7:spade: ($50.10, 2 players)

Final Pot: $50.10
baudib1 shows
J:club: J:spade:
BB shows
2:diamond: 8:diamond:

baudib1 wins $50.94 (net +$24.27)

BB lost $25
 
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baudib1

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$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($34.06) 136bb
UTG+1 ($26.45) 106bb
CO ($17.50) 70bb
BTN ($10) 40bb
baudib1 (SB) ($42.36) 169bb
BB ($25) 100bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.60, 6 players) baudib1 is SB 9:spade: 9:club:
[CO posts $0.25]
2 folds, CO checks, 1 fold, baudib1 raises to $0.75, BB raises to $2.50, CO folds, baudib1 raises to $7.75, BB goes all-in $25, baudib1 calls $17.25

Flop: 3:heart: 7:spade: K:club: ($50.25, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: 6:spade: ($50.25, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: 6:diamond: ($50.25, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $50.25
baudib1 shows
9:spade: 9:club:
BB shows
8:spade: A:spade:

baudib1 wins $47.74 (net +$22.74)

CO lost $0.25
BB lost $25
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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This is not AIPF but it was Rush poker. I just don't think this type of spew happens at FR.

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($25) 100bb
UTG+1 ($25) 100bb
baudib1 (CO) ($26.67) 107bb
BTN ($10.12) 40bb
SB ($116.43) 466bb
BB ($25) 100bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) baudib1 is CO J<font color='black'>♣</font> J<font color='black'>♠</font>
2 folds, baudib1 raises to $1, 2 folds, BB raises to $2.50, baudib1 calls $1.50

Flop: 6<font color='black'>♣</font> 9<font color='red'>♦</font> 2<font color='black'>♠</font> ($5.10, 2 players)
BB checks, baudib1 bets $24.17, BB calls $22.50

Turn: 7<font color='black'>♣</font> ($50.10, 2 players)

River: 7<font color='black'>♠</font> ($50.10, 2 players)

Final Pot: $50.10
baudib1 shows
J<font color='black'>♣</font> J<font color='black'>♠</font>
BB shows
2<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='red'>♦</font>

baudib1 wins $50.94 (net +$24.27)

BB lost $25

in all fairness, your flop shove IP is pretty retarded lol. id probably hero deuces too hahaha.
as for 99>A8 BvB im completely mindblown. are you just 4bing cos its BvB or what? are you makign this play readless? surely this cant be standard to get it in good there?
 
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baudib1

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JJ hand, I felt he would call with A-high so he was at the top of his range.

99 hand was a totally standard AIPF for value against that guy.

I got to the point of getting it in pre with 88-TT type hands BTN vs. Blinds and found myself generally in good shape.
 
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