Downswing

M

major pissadas

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Hi

I'm a cash game player and am currently going through a massive downswing at NL5. I lost 56€ in the last 5 days and also 15€ in NL10 which is amazing to me. Today, I decided to drop back down to NL2 and I honestly don't see how I'll be able to move up again despite still having 235€ and 3900 starscoins. NL5 was going great until June 1st when I hit the 300€ mark. After that, it was just a rollercoaster having peaked at 311€ and now at 232€.

I'm just looking for advice from people who've been where I am now. I don't want to play NL2 forever but my confidence for higher stakes went down the drain.

Edit: Here are some graphs from my play in NL5.

http://imgur.com/a/eQmuN

Thanks
 
Last edited:
Doubledunk

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hang in there man.
just a suggestion, get the free trial version of leak buster and see where you are losing money.

good luck
 
Aces2w1n

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Remember your game isnt better or worse based on confidence.

Post some hands and see what others are doing.

Perhaps trying to bluff too much
Take breaks after bad beats
Fix your cold calling
Use position and dont get fancy oop
Mw pots remember u need a stronger hand
Believe them when they raise on dryboards like idiots lol

Just practice your weaknesses by identifying
And use whats working.

Remember no matter how bad your still doing right things
 
P

pietpikel

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Hi

I'm a cash game player and am currently going through a massive downswing at NL5. I lost 56€ in the last 5 days and also 15€ in NL10 which is amazing to me. Today, I decided to drop back down to NL2 and I honestly don't see how I'll be able to move up again despite still having 235€ and 3900 starscoins. NL5 was going great until June 1st when I hit the 300€ mark. After that, it was just a rollercoaster having peaked at 311€ and now at 232€.

I'm just looking for advice from people who've been where I am now. I don't want to play NL2 forever but my confidence for higher stakes went down the drain.

Edit: Here are some graphs from my play in NL5.

http://imgur.com/a/eQmuN

Thanks
Losing and winning go hand in hand. They are not mutually exclusive. But you definitely learn more on a downswing, because you start asking why ? I think the trick is to embrace it as a positive. Understand that the analysis that a downswing initiates is probably beneficial for your game long term.

A downswing also has subtle effects. It's a bit like scuba diving. Every dive leaves some nitrogen in the blood, and every downswing leaves some subconscious negativity in the brain. When you are winning it has the opposite effect. It leaves positive vibes in your brain.

So drop down a level, and pick up a few wins, and get that positive subconscious energy going again.
 
M

major pissadas

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Remember your game isnt better or worse based on confidence.

Post some hands and see what others are doing.

Perhaps trying to bluff too much
Take breaks after bad beats
Fix your cold calling
Use position and dont get fancy oop
Mw pots remember u need a stronger hand
Believe them when they raise on dryboards like idiots lol

Just practice your weaknesses by identifying
And use whats working.

Remember no matter how bad your still doing right things

Hi

I checked my hand history and noticed a few leaks probably due to the accumulation of tilt but I had enough after yesterday's session and went NL2. This is what happened:

PokerStars - €0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 143.4 BB (VPIP: 15.19, PFR: 11.61, 3Bet Preflop: 6.84, Hands: 11,538)
SB: 60.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 36)
Hero (BB): 104.8 BB
UTG: 109.4 BB (VPIP: 20.69, PFR: 17.24, 3Bet Preflop: 6.12, Hands: 148)
CO: 97.6 BB (VPIP: 28.89, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K K

UTG raises to 109.4 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 103.8 BB and is all-in

Flop: (210 BB, 2 players) T Q 4

Turn: (210 BB, 2 players) J

River: (210 BB, 2 players) 2

Hero shows K K (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 18%, Flop 10%, Turn 14%)
UTG shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 82%, Flop 90%, Turn 86%)
UTG wins 199.6 BB

PokerStars - €0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 199.8 BB (VPIP: 44.16, PFR: 6.49, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 82)
Hero (CO): 123.4 BB
BTN: 111.8 BB (VPIP: 22.48, PFR: 18.79, 3Bet Preflop: 7.44, Hands: 2,214)
SB: 104.2 BB (VPIP: 27.59, PFR: 19.54, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 90)
BB: 107 BB (VPIP: 15.21, PFR: 11.63, 3Bet Preflop: 6.85, Hands: 11,489)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q Q

UTG calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, SB raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 8 BB

Flop: (26 BB, 2 players) 7 J T
SB bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

Turn: (52 BB, 2 players) 2
SB bets 23.8 BB, Hero calls 23.8 BB

River: (99.6 BB, 2 players) 9
SB checks, Hero bets 63 BB, SB calls 55.4 BB and is all-in

Hero shows Q Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 18%, Flop 12%, Turn 5%)
SB shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 82%, Flop 88%, Turn 95%)
SB wins 199.8 BB

Think I could have checked the river since he seemed to have a stronger hand.

Not every session was like that but that was the last straw. I've been playing worse due to wanting my money back but I don't know if I can fix that. I don't seem to have those kinds of thoughts in NL2. I feel like it's easier.

http://imgur.com/a/3Jnjg

I was very inconsistent in those first 50k hands at NL2 and was dabbling between MTT's, SNG's and cash until I eventually decided to focus on cash games and became a consistent winner. The graph is very different from NL5...
 
M

major pissadas

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Losing and winning go hand in hand. They are not mutually exclusive. But you definitely learn more on a downswing, because you start asking why ? I think the trick is to embrace it as a positive. Understand that the analysis that a downswing initiates is probably beneficial for your game long term.

A downswing also has subtle effects. It's a bit like scuba diving. Every dive leaves some nitrogen in the blood, and every downswing leaves some subconscious negativity in the brain. When you are winning it has the opposite effect. It leaves positive vibes in your brain.

So drop down a level, and pick up a few wins, and get that positive subconscious energy going again.

Do you think I should play NL2 until I have 300€ again and go NL10 instead of NL5? I feel the stakes are pretty similar and I'm kinda saturated of always playing against the same people at NL5. I would have 30BI for the stake.

Thanks
 
B

braveslice

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Just play 2nl and when you feel extra good play hands on 5nl untill you get cold feeds again and back to 2nl. Repeat.

I used this against my arch enemy 10nl. Not saying it works 100% but quite good.
 
Andrew Popov

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Watch and analyze your hands. Look for errors, look for weaknesses in your game. Most likely they are. Of course, sometimes it's easy - bad luck. But you have to make sure that you do not make obvious mistakes in the game.
 
M

major pissadas

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What kind of bankroll management should I use? I know there's recommendations of 20-50BI but which model should I adopt and how many BI can I lose before dropping in stakes?
 
TheNutz4You

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Downswings are just part of the game. You have to tough through it and continue learning and perfecting your game. Tag hands that you think you played bad and go through them after the session and figure out what you did wrong/ post them here and let others give you their opinion. Take some time and play NL2 for 20k hands and check your results. If you are beating the game for 5-10bb/100 then move up to NL5 again and run 20k hands and recheck the results.
 
Aces2w1n

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Hi

I checked my hand history and noticed a few leaks probably due to the accumulation of tilt but I had enough after yesterday's session and went NL2. This is what happened:

PokerStars - €0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 143.4 BB (VPIP: 15.19, PFR: 11.61, 3Bet Preflop: 6.84, Hands: 11,538)
SB: 60.4 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 36)
Hero (BB): 104.8 BB
UTG: 109.4 BB (VPIP: 20.69, PFR: 17.24, 3Bet Preflop: 6.12, Hands: 148)
CO: 97.6 BB (VPIP: 28.89, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K K

UTG raises to 109.4 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 103.8 BB and is all-in

Flop: (210 BB, 2 players) T Q 4

Turn: (210 BB, 2 players) J

River: (210 BB, 2 players) 2

Hero shows K K (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 18%, Flop 10%, Turn 14%)
UTG shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 82%, Flop 90%, Turn 86%)
UTG wins 199.6 BB

PokerStars - €0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 199.8 BB (VPIP: 44.16, PFR: 6.49, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 82)
Hero (CO): 123.4 BB
BTN: 111.8 BB (VPIP: 22.48, PFR: 18.79, 3Bet Preflop: 7.44, Hands: 2,214)
SB: 104.2 BB (VPIP: 27.59, PFR: 19.54, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 90)
BB: 107 BB (VPIP: 15.21, PFR: 11.63, 3Bet Preflop: 6.85, Hands: 11,489)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q Q

UTG calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, SB raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 8 BB

Flop: (26 BB, 2 players) 7 J T
SB bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

Turn: (52 BB, 2 players) 2
SB bets 23.8 BB, Hero calls 23.8 BB

River: (99.6 BB, 2 players) 9
SB checks, Hero bets 63 BB, SB calls 55.4 BB and is all-in

Hero shows Q Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 18%, Flop 12%, Turn 5%)
SB shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 82%, Flop 88%, Turn 95%)
SB wins 199.8 BB

Think I could have checked the river since he seemed to have a stronger hand.

Not every session was like that but that was the last straw. I've been playing worse due to wanting my money back but I don't know if I can fix that. I don't seem to have those kinds of thoughts in NL2. I feel like it's easier.

http://imgur.com/a/3Jnjg

I was very inconsistent in those first 50k hands at NL2 and was dabbling between MTT's, SNG's and cash until I eventually decided to focus on cash games and became a consistent winner. The graph is very different from NL5...


Kk vs aa this happens but its nothing alarming it just happens

Qq vs aa... im betting when im playing a fish but against a decent reg u check behind... most ppl will fold worse hands meaning no value. It also depends on your image


These hands arent downswinging its just everyday poker u have to move past.
 
el_magiciann

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everyone has downswings from time to time, just get used to it, if you play right you should be in the green zone, just be patient
 
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Don't be afraid to take a shot at NL5 but keep playing NL2. Play within your means and be disciplined. Downswings and upswings come and go. Just be consistent and pick yourself back up! Look at your hand history if you want to, realise when you are playing your A game.

Make notes on players to exploit!
 
M

major pissadas

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Hi

I've been playing NL2 for the last 3 days with profit but, at this pace, it will take me 2 months to get back to 300€. Anyway, I'm not sure if this is the right place but I would like some feedback on this hand:

PokerStars - €0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 24.22, PFR: 15.59, 3Bet Preflop: 1.54, Hands: 428)
MP: 106 BB (VPIP: 41.65, PFR: 26.12, 3Bet Preflop: 8.76, Hands: 458)
CO: 25.5 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
BTN: 232.5 BB (VPIP: 47.57, PFR: 15.41, 3Bet Preflop: 9.71, Hands: 268)
SB: 103 BB (VPIP: 15.80, PFR: 12.22, 3Bet Preflop: 3.05, Hands: 1,833)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K A

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, MP calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (19.5 BB, 2 players) 3 3 A
Hero bets 14 BB, MP calls 14 BB

Turn: (47.5 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 34 BB, MP calls 34 BB

River: (115.5 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero bets 42.5 BB and is all-in, MP calls 42.5 BB

Hero shows K A (Two Pair, Aces and Threes)
(Pre 69%, Flop 3%, Turn 1%)
MP shows A 3 (Full House, Threes full of Aces)
(Pre 31%, Flop 97%, Turn 99%)
MP wins 190.5 BB

I didn't know what he had but I was expecting an A with a lower kicker. Maybe I should have bet less overall?
 
Aces2w1n

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Im going broke in that spot... im also raising 12bb as my 3bet raise
 
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braveslice

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+1 what Ace days.

Good play imo, just keep punishing fish, u win way more than lose with this play.
 
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Yeah, great play tbh. Just don't always think of beats....you have far more win hands that should stay at the forefront of your mind when playing. Good luck
 
Keith_MM

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you're only posting hands where you were destined to lose a stack regardless how you played it . These are normally balanced by the hands that you win regardless of how you play them. Post some hands where you weren't sure how to play them and don't post the results.
 
M

major pissadas

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you're only posting hands where you were destined to lose a stack regardless how you played it . These are normally balanced by the hands that you win regardless of how you play them. Post some hands where you weren't sure how to play them and don't post the results.

I did play a hand right now against a maniac I know from NL5/10.

PokerStars - €0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (CO): 146.5 BB
BTN: 49.5 BB (VPIP: 26.03, PFR: 9.87, 3Bet Preflop: 1.69, Hands: 317)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.07, PFR: 20.30, 3Bet Preflop: 7.37, Hands: 2,752)
BB: 44.5 BB (VPIP: 22.06, PFR: 19.87, 3Bet Preflop: 7.56, Hands: 481)
UTG: 189 BB (VPIP: 53.29, PFR: 21.78, 3Bet Preflop: 8.62, Hands: 311)
MP: 176.5 BB (VPIP: 11.36, PFR: 5.68, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 90)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K Q

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 10 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) J 5 6
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) J
SB checks, Hero bets 10 BB, SB raises to 30 BB, fold

SB wins 39 BB

I've seen him 3Bet vs. steals with 44, QQ+, 76s, AJo+ and I've seen him go all-in as a bluff on the turn with nothing. He's very annoying... Maybe he also lost a lot of money and moved down in stakes or he cashed out but I have to put up with him for now it seems.

Edit: Don't know if this is the type of hand you meant so let me know.
 
AlayneBarros

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When a player is getting too annoying at a table I'm playing I expect an excellent hand and I make a 3BB if I come on the flop some card I call and pretend I have nothing for him to get excited about the turn, I just keep calling him Betting, when it is on the river that he bets very high I'm sure I have the best hand I go all in ... the majority pays ..rsrs
 
Dorugremon

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1st Hand)

It depends. Against some vills, I send those Brokeback Mtns to the bunkhouse as fast as I can because I know that their AI means aces and nothing but aces. Against unknowns, it depends on how I interpret their action. Maybe I call, and maybe I don't. You have 2nd nuts pre, and can be beat by just one hand. If they happen to have that exact hand, oh well... Don't forget that you can dog the aces, so a loss isn't inevitable.

2nd Hand)

This is pretty standard. Against what I interpret as an aggrofish, I definitely call his 1/2 pot / 1/2 pot. You have the top end of the straight blocked, reducing the value of semi-bluffs -- a hand he could very well have.

The big mistake was the river. There's (Jc, Tc, 7h, 2s, 9d) on board. The flush draw missed, the 2s is a total blank, and the 9d can't have helped anything but a ten or eight. Before you bet, you need to ask what can call here and still be second best? There are a lot of hands he could have been air balling: Big Slick, Little Slick, (9,9) (T,9) (Ac,8c) Would he call with an ace-high, hoping you missed with a K-high? That's doubtful since he's lead out twice, and now seems to be giving up on his bluffs. (9,9) (T,9) and (Ac,8c) all got there on the river, and he could very well have had (J,T) from the get-go. About the only thing he could have had that could call the river and still be second best is some sort of jack, like a (K,,J) or (Q,J). My inclination is to check back the river.

3rd Hand)

Cooler. Nothing you can do about it.

MP: 106 BB (VPIP: 41.65, PFR: 26.12, 3Bet Preflop: 8.76, Hands: 458)

Given stats like this, about the only thing I'd've done differently would be to raise bigger. Against this maniac, I'd be all-in with Big Slick. He would still call with (Ah,3h)... oh well. Reload.

4th Hand)


Equity Win Tie
CO 35.31% 34.90% 0.42% { KsQs }
SB 64.69% 64.27% 0.42% { QQ+, 44, AJs+, 76s, AJo+ }



Given his exact range, it's a clear fold.


Equity Win Tie
CO 49.79% 47.94% 1.85% { KsQs }
SB 50.21% 48.36% 1.85% { 22+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, KJs+, QJs, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, A5o-A2o, KJo+, QJo, JTo }



If he'll make a play with pocket fours, he's likely to do it with any pocket pair. Include some other suited connectors, suited one-gappers, and the higher two-gappers, it becomes practically a coin flip.

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) J
SB checks, Hero bets 10 BB, SB raises to 30 BB, fold
Never try to bluff an aggrotard. Just don't. :banghead:
 
M

major pissadas

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4th Hand)


Equity Win Tie
CO 35.31% 34.90% 0.42% { KsQs }
SB 64.69% 64.27% 0.42% { QQ+, 44, AJs+, 76s, AJo+ }



Given his exact range, it's a clear fold.


Equity Win Tie
CO 49.79% 47.94% 1.85% { KsQs }
SB 50.21% 48.36% 1.85% { 22+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, KJs+, QJs, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, A5o-A2o, KJo+, QJo, JTo }



If he'll make a play with pocket fours, he's likely to do it with any pocket pair. Include some other suited connectors, suited one-gappers, and the higher two-gappers, it becomes practically a coin flip.

Never try to bluff an aggrotard. Just don't. :banghead:

Hi

Should I call 3bets based on raw equity? Many ppl advocate calling with suited connectors and those rarely have enough equity against a 3betting range. Calling 3bets is a part of my game where I'm not confident and I usually just follow some guidelines.
 
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major pissadas

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What do you guys think of this hand?

PokerStars - €0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 89 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Hero (BTN): 100.6 BB
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 18.57, PFR: 12.46, 3Bet Preflop: 2.50, Hands: 310)
BB: 88.8 BB (VPIP: 38.25, PFR: 4.21, 3Bet Preflop: 3.17, Hands: 287)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:spade: A:diamond:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.4 BB, 2 players) 7:heart: A:heart: 6:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 5 BB, BB calls 5 BB

Turn: (16.4 BB, 2 players) A:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 12 BB, BB raises to 24 BB, Hero calls 12 BB

River: (64.4 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
BB bets 56.8 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 56.8 BB
 
Keith_MM

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reshove turn but as played ...... its probably an arghhhhhhhhhhh moment when he shoves as flushes have got there , 45 gives a straight , so i kick myself and fold. check call , check call/raise , shove is usually the nuts going for value on the river.
 
M

major pissadas

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reshove turn but as played ...... its probably an arghhhhhhhhhhh moment when he shoves as flushes have got there , 45 gives a straight , so i kick myself and fold. check call , check call/raise , shove is usually the nuts going for value on the river.

Thanks for the feedback. He had 77, btw. I've been checking my ranges in Pokertracker looking for leaks and I found quite a few, especially calling 3bets with 88. I defined the default calling range as TT+, AQs+, AQo+ but I'm unsure about QTs+, KQo, QTs, 98s because of small sample size.

Should I be calling 3bets with suited connectors or folding them? I know some ppl do it and some don't so I'm not sure what I should do. I understand pocket pairs' implied odds but I've never read about the SC'.

Thanks

Edit: There's a reg that calls 3bets with AA vs. other regs and seems to work well. Will probably try it sometime.
 
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