Is Donk Betting Ever +EV?

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starting_at_the_bottom

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Is it ever +ve?
When?
Why?

Would love any opinions.


:D
 
Mr Sandbag

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Is it ever +ve?
When?
Why?

Would love any opinions.


:D


PROS:

- Against weak players/calling stations, you can get more value from your hand
- Against strong players, you get the first chance to bluff when you think the board missed your opponent's range
- You avoid giving a free card to drawing hands when you may be ahead
- You take control of the hand the rest of the way

CONS:

- When you have a weak hand and get called, you are OOP the rest of the way with an inflated pot
- When playing against strong players, you have to balance your donkbetting range to include bluffs, and bluffing OOP against solid players can be dangerous
- If your range isn't balanced to include bluffs, you basically scream to the table that you hit the flop
- You risk getting raised by an opponent that has position on you
- You may get an aggressive opponent to fold rather than checking to him and getting an extra bet out of him

Basically, like anything in poker, donkbetting can be both good and bad, depending on the game dynamics. I never used to donkbet. But I play 1/2 NL live where the player pool is terrible in general, and a lot of players will call me without even thinking about whether or not I hit the flop. This usually gives me some extra value instead of risking a check-around and a free turn card.

If you are usually playing against decent/solid/strong players, you may want to think about whether it will be beneficial or harmful to your game. If you can't effectively balance your donkbetting range with air, you should probably just avoid doing it most of the time, even when you risk getting drawn out on with a free turn if it is checked around.
 
C

cotta777

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Yea I pretty much agree with above poster,
if your donk betting at a high level of poker or at an aggressive table you are going to get floated double floated, re-raised, toyed with and all kinds of stuff you really dont want to be dealing with out of position.

If you have been a rock and playing a tight range, their is no harm in a cheeky one off donk bet once an hour or 2 for extra +EV
But I would always recommend 3-betting pre to take initiative then leading in first and leading in strong against weak player but you'l be adjusting for good players if you are uncertain how the percieve your large bets.

if you haven't done this often your opponent cannot take that risk without a super premium hand which they wont have enough of the time
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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Very informative posts, many thanks
 
I

IJustWantToTalk

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TBH... In most live games your table is going to be one filled mostly with donks/mediocre players. If you can't find the donk/mediocre player at the table... than its probably you and you need to GTFOutta there. I have played at major casino poker rooms at low lvl binds ($1/2 or $2/4 NL) for 20-40+ hours a week for the better part of the year. You would be incredibly surprised how many wsop and other Major tournament winners regularly sit at tables of random casinos. Unless you are a REAL regular at a particular casino and really get into the poker scene... you would never realize how out matched you may be versus the guy on your left. Donks/Fish/Mediocre players bring in the money. Leave your ego at home and play poker to GET MONEY... not fame. Its a business. Treat it as such. Or... Donate me your chips...
 
Blobweird123

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TBH... In most live games your table is going to be one filled mostly with donks/mediocre players. If you can't find the donk/mediocre player at the table... than its probably you and you need to GTFOutta there. I have played at major casino poker rooms at low lvl binds ($1/2 or $2/4 NL) for 20-40+ hours a week for the better part of the year. You would be incredibly surprised how many WSOP and other Major tournament winners regularly sit at tables of random casinos. Unless you are a REAL regular at a particular casino and really get into the poker scene... you would never realize how out matched you may be versus the guy on your left. Donks/Fish/Mediocre players bring in the money. Leave your ego at home and play poker to GET MONEY... not fame. Its a business. Treat it as such. Or... Donate me your chips...

And what does this have to do with donk betting exactly? :dontknow:
 
P

PokerStarsS

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Donkbetting is good way to trap tilting opponents.
 
I

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I know what it means. Its a move of check/calling or call/call or betting pre-flop in a hand every so often OOP with rags or 22+ to 77 with the knowledge that there are strong handed players in the pot. Flop comes and OOP you open up the pot against the original Aggressor. Hoping that someone with the AK AJ or KQ KJ hits the flop but its a weak flop .... As 4c 9d.... and you hit trips or possibly hit two pair 4 9.... etc. Lots of different meanings to Donk betting. What I said previously still applies
 
Blobweird123

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I know what it means. Its a move of check/calling or call/call or betting pre-flop in a hand every so often OOP with rags or 22+ to 77 with the knowledge that there are strong handed players in the pot. Flop comes and OOP you open up the pot against the original Aggressor. Hoping that someone with the AK AJ or KQ KJ hits the flop but its a weak flop .... As 4c 9d.... and you hit trips or possibly hit two pair 4 9.... etc. Lots of different meanings to Donk betting. What I said previously still applies

And how does it apply when he asked if its +ev? Clearly you didn't know then searched it. Which is fine but don't lie lol
 
I

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Let me first state that what Mr.Sandbag said in this thread is something that I completely agree with and my original post was a follow up to his post (albeit scatterbrained). In my first post it was a longwinded, all over the place, way of saying it is best to gauge the level of play coming from your opponents before you decide to make a donk bet. It is also +EV to be situated at a live table full of donks/mediocre players in general. It is not a game of ego and as such... if you have the opportunity to move away from a table with less competition at any given point in time do so quickly.

It is more often than not +EV when using donk betting against players at live games. As always everything is dependent upon the variables involved...personality of player, emotional mindset of player, confidence and willingness to gamble of any given player, amongst other things... IMHO it is a +EV move if done once after 3-4+ hours of playing at the same Live cash table with the same full ring of players and only if you havent had a decent pre-flop hand in said amount of time or if it is an online room in Bovada in order to gain information on the table of player with which you are playing against.

Its good for a few other things... Firstly, being able to change the momentum of your stance at the table (LAG or TAG) or making the table think that you are changing gears when in fact you are not and it is also useful to randomize the range of hands that other players put you on.
It's not a move that I encourage any player to make too often as it has WAY too many unknowns involved in the hand and best case scenario is the off chance that you'll hit the flop and trap a player(s). Also... How much are you willing to stake on such a multi-variable hand? If you don't hit the flop than you are stuck with risking more chips for a draw or in the hopes of getting the other player to fold or you fold. Even if you don't hit the flop it atleast gives you the opportunity to represent having a better hand than the other player(s) and an opportunity to win money on a hand that would otherwise not be worth squat.

IMHO... If done only once every 3-4 hours I feel as though it has more pro's than cons. If done at a table full of professional poker players with very keen observational skills and plenty of bankroll to play the odds more effectively... I would only make that play with the hopes that they would undervalue my hands in the future making it more likely to get max value on a great pre-flop hand.
 
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Blobweird123

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You can't base using a move by how many hours you've been sitting lol. That makes no sense. It can work just as well after 3 hands as it can after 500 hands.
 
I

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It's a risky move that could decimate your chipstack. Also, how many times are you honestly going to make a move like that, lose, and keep your head together? Often times we kick ourselves in the ass anytime we choose to make a risky move and second guess the nature of our game which would put most people on a tilt situation for a period of time. Which is why I say... I only suggest to do it keeping what I have said in mind. And only do it every 3-4 hours regardless of if it worked out to your benefit and you felted someone or not.
We are talking about a Cash Game here... 1 table... Live. You ever lose $400, or how about $4000, on a hand you were better off not ever having been in? For people with a solid poker strategy and solid bankroll management this kind of thing may only be a minor setback. It's all about having the right mindset and playing at stakes you are comfortable with losing. Make sure you realize that Donk Betting can be a useful game changing move if you win or lose and is justifiable as such. So long as you actually use it with other goals in mind... consider it higher equity if you will. Do it once every few hours or not at all. Winning the hand your in is always a concern but thinking ahead and setting yourself up for more beneficial higher % chances of taking down larger pots with cards that are no-brainer max value plays is a much more intelligent choice. Atleast for long term financial gain.
Like I said, that is how I approach making a Donk Bet...I have noticed personally it is best to do so with a very low frequency. Some people lose sight of the goal because emotions come into play and wipe logic clear off the map.
Theres a saying. "Lots of valuable lessons in life come freely but often the most important ones come with a high price."
 
I

IJustWantToTalk

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Edit*

It's a risky move that could decimate your chipstack. Also, how many times are you honestly going to make a move like that, lose, and keep your head together? Often times we kick ourselves in the ass anytime we choose to make a risky move and second guess the nature of our game for a period of time. Which is I suggest doing it sparingly.

We are talking about a Cash Game here... 1 table... Live. You ever lose $400, or how about $4000, on a hand you were better off not ever having been in? Instead of yelling at your screen in the comfort of your own home, your in a casino. If you get all pissed off atleast 1 person at your table is going to recognize it and probably more. Not all poker players are gentlemen, some are very adept at playcating to your flaws and using your flaws against you.

For people with a solid poker strategy and solid bankroll management this kind of thing may only be a minor setback. It's all about having the right mindset and playing at stakes you are comfortable with losing. Make sure you realize that Donk Betting can be a useful game changing move if you win or lose and is justifiable as such. So long as you actually use it with other goals in mind... consider it higher equity if you will. Do it once every few hours or not at all. Winning the hand your in is always the main concern but when making a Donk Bet, its more important to think ahead and use this Donk Bet as another tool in your arsenal. Setting yourself up for more beneficial high percentage chances of taking down larger and/or more pots with great starting cards or using positions to your advantage that are no-brainer max value plays. Its the intelligent choice for long term financial gain.

Its like this...How frequently can you make a costly irrational decision and still consider yourself to have a solid game plan? In life or otherwise?
Anyone with half a brain knows when its time to carterize your gaping money wounds.
Every once in awhile you can be adventurous and eat that gas station sushi roll.
Maybe its a confidence booster of "I don't give an F" and that helps you to be more assertive and confident when making decisions. Like, "That was dumb as F but I still had the courage to do it and it wasn't a disaster even with the odds against me. What if I keep this same attitude but use it for making intelligent clinch decisions in situations that I have to be in order to maximize my gain. Or it could be a humbling experience that may make you laugh and learn to appreciate how stupid that was.
But if you do it more than once that week and end up with some kinda third world intestine eating worm? Shame on you.

Like I said, that is how I approach making a Donk Bet...I have noticed personally it is best to do so with a very low frequency. Some people lose sight of the goal because emotions come into play and wipe logic clear off the map.
Theres a saying. "Lots of valuable lessons in life come freely but often the most important ones come with a high price tag."
 
Blobweird123

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It's a risky move that could decimate your chipstack. Also, how many times are you honestly going to make a move like that, lose, and keep your head together? Often times we kick ourselves in the ass anytime we choose to make a risky move and second guess the nature of our game which would put most people on a tilt situation for a period of time. Which is why I say... I only suggest to do it keeping what I have said in mind. And only do it every 3-4 hours regardless of if it worked out to your benefit and you felted someone or not.
We are talking about a Cash Game here... 1 table... Live. You ever lose $400, or how about $4000, on a hand you were better off not ever having been in? For people with a solid poker strategy and solid bankroll management this kind of thing may only be a minor setback. It's all about having the right mindset and playing at stakes you are comfortable with losing. Make sure you realize that Donk Betting can be a useful game changing move if you win or lose and is justifiable as such. So long as you actually use it with other goals in mind... consider it higher equity if you will. Do it once every few hours or not at all. Winning the hand your in is always a concern but thinking ahead and setting yourself up for more beneficial higher % chances of taking down larger pots with cards that are no-brainer max value plays is a much more intelligent choice. Atleast for long term financial gain.
Like I said, that is how I approach making a Donk Bet...I have noticed personally it is best to do so with a very low frequency. Some people lose sight of the goal because emotions come into play and wipe logic clear off the map.
Theres a saying. "Lots of valuable lessons in life come freely but often the most important ones come with a high price."

Tbh after reading through your posts, i'm still not sure you know what a donk bet is lol. I would donk bet 15 hands in a row if it were the correct situation, has nothing to do with hours of play in between whatsoever. No action should be weighted vs time like that in poker. Makes no sense. Please explain to me what a donk bet is truly. And if you can use google, way to go, but then explain why we should limit it based on time and not use it situationally.
 
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Never bet against calling stations unless you have something real good. If you have a medium hand keep the pot size low. Don´t feel commited to the pot with mediocre hands or it will cost you tons of money.
 
DrazaFFT

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Never bet against calling stations unless you have something real good. If you have a medium hand keep the pot size low. Don´t feel commited to the pot with mediocre hands or it will cost you tons of money.

I have to say that i agree with this post as a general advice.... but in term of donk betting i think that it should be absolutely opposite. Lets first, for the sake of the debate say what the donk bet is, it is a bet from OOP before the initial aggressor had a chance to act, now as we already have read all the pros and cons lets say what are the good reads or info that you should have before you decide that you should or shouldn't donk bet, how often your opponent c-bets when he bet preflop, if he bets really often than when you hit a monster of course that it is better to check to him and let him fire again and call or raise than donk bet and fold him... See now how different it sounds that the tactic above, of course that you shouldn't bluff a calling station but it has nothing to do with this tread. If the initial raisor have low c-bet percentage and you are oop i would say that it is ok to donk bet then and make him pay if he wants to see the next street, imo it is ok to do that if your opponent plays draw (again you need info on your opponents) but he raise pre and the want to slow it down to see the more cards cheap... Also i would donk bet if im drawing and try to block bet to get him flat because if i check to him he might bet bigger than my odds would let me to call

Now to OP question is it +ev ill short say yes as a bluff move no with monster hand, now this is just opinion of a guy who still trying to figure out the game...
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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"Also i would donk bet if im drawing and try to block bet to get him flat because if i check to him he might bet bigger than my odds would let me to call"

Yes, but just never min donk bet.

About 70% of the time where I play, the min donk bet means "I have a flush draw, please dont raise", 29% of the time is a weak pair and 1% of the time is a monster and they 3bet over the top when you raise.

All numbers plucked from the air of course, but its pretty close to the truth imo.
 
PrayForSpades

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PROS:

- Against weak players/calling stations, you can get more value from your hand
- Against strong players, you get the first chance to bluff when you think the board missed your opponent's range
- You avoid giving a free card to drawing hands when you may be ahead
- You take control of the hand the rest of the way

CONS:

- When you have a weak hand and get called, you are OOP the rest of the way with an inflated pot
- When playing against strong players, you have to balance your donkbetting range to include bluffs, and bluffing OOP against solid players can be dangerous
- If your range isn't balanced to include bluffs, you basically scream to the table that you hit the flop
- You risk getting raised by an opponent that has position on you
- You may get an aggressive opponent to fold rather than checking to him and getting an extra bet out of him

Basically, like anything in poker, donkbetting can be both good and bad, depending on the game dynamics. I never used to donkbet. But I play 1/2 NL live where the player pool is terrible in general, and a lot of players will call me without even thinking about whether or not I hit the flop. This usually gives me some extra value instead of risking a check-around and a free turn card.

If you are usually playing against decent/solid/strong players, you may want to think about whether it will be beneficial or harmful to your game. If you can't effectively balance your donkbetting range with air, you should probably just avoid doing it most of the time, even when you risk getting drawn out on with a free turn if it is checked around.


Very good post, this sums it up nicely.
 
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